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Yacht Serena III sinks off Ft. Lauderdale

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Ken Bracewell, Jan 25, 2016.

  1. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    It's not a RINA requirement depending on the level of class. At least that is what I found on the 140' I engineered on.

    And yes Pascal the dewatering/fire pumps and valve manifolds are located in the engine room in many/most cases on larger boats.
  2. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Might be a "problem" or might not be. The boat will be classed, if it is even classed - most boats that size are not - with a notation for unattended or periodically unattended machinery spaces. That means in the case of a fire or flooding, someone will have to go to the space where the pumps and manifold are located and deal with the situation. It isn't quite the danger that many seem to make it.

    I suggest a good read of the very easily obtained class rules for any one of the class societies and peruse them. Any one of them will do, most are virtually cut and paste of the others and many have yacht specific rules that allow yachts some compliance latitude. There is a wide gulf between little boats and "big boats."

    There is a lot more to it than "all you have to do is ..."

    So, you think that a "sea chest" or another through hull in each compartment connected to an automatic bilge pump is a good idea? Spend a bit of time thinking about that central bilge main and what is needed to make it work without flooding every other compartment and get back to us. Or better yet, ask to go bilge crawling on a large boat so you can see how the plumbing works.

    That's pretty simple on a lil 53 that most likely doesn't have any watertight bulkheads and where you can drill holes through bulkheads and the side of the boat and run DC power willy nilly.

    Even a smaller "big boat" like Serena is a whole nuther world from what you are used to.
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Somewhere there is a sample table that I can not find tonight. It offers the amount of water that can flow thru a small hole under a couple feet of water.
    It will enlighten and scare some people.

    I recall looking it up one time, if I lost a 2.5 inch shaft, my 3700 + 2000 + sump pump in the engine room, could not keep up.
    My second ER pump, belt driven, 60GPM / 3600GPH helps me a little feel better.

    Pumps will only buy time on a little hole. Pillows, mattresses, and bags of trash can prove to be the big heroes, then the pumps.

    Anybody know where that (on-line) data and graph is hiding?
  4. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    After you finish reading the class rules you should contact IACS to share your concerns. Here's a link so you can email them.

    http://www.iacs.org.uk/contact.aspx
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Class Rules are minimum standards that the builder has to meet. Most all of the yachts from 100-150' I have been on or ran, had other sources of pumping bilges located outside of the engine room.

    This boat was built to class rules, Yogi was built to class rules. They both sank with a full complement of crew on board didn't they?
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Yes...there are many formulas. I'm assuming a 4" hole and depth of 10' in these.

    One is 3600 x sq ft of hole x sq rt of depth.

    That gives you 3600 x 1/9 x 3.16 or 1264 gpm.

    Another formula is 20 x sq inches of hole x sq rt of depth.

    That is 20 x 16 x 3.16 or 1012 gpm

    Here is a link to a table based on that last one.

    http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/HoleSizeandFloodingtable.pdf
  7. saltysenior

    saltysenior Senior Member

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    BUT: the best pump system in no better than intake. One soggy cardboard box can destroy it's use.
    On the other hand , how fast was her speed....leaving laud. at that time,what time did they expect to arrive in Freeport.??
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    If Serena really was built to class, any damage that produced flooding in any single compartment should not have led to it sinking. The only way it could have progressively flooded is if no one closed the wateright doors between compartments or if external doors and ports were left open near the waterline.

    Don't blame the bilge pumping system or the location of the pumps or lack of alarms.
  9. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    That
    Very good.

    So to surmise;
    It takes a lot to sink a boat built to some class. A dropped, smashed, broken stabilizer fin/shaft should not have been a sinker per some bilge isolation (class) design.
    Nobody noticed a poor riding or preforming ship till miles off shore.
    The CAPTAIN went below?
    No comments on a transom door open.
    This boat had already been around (Med and back).
    Mate offered a red hearing?
    Did somebody mention YOGI??

    Naw, That ship should of been in Freeport Tuesday morning...
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  10. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I wonder if the stab shaft would be 4" even of that size hoat. Is it?

    A 3" hole 3' below WL would let 300Gpm into the boat Sure that's more than one pump can handle but at least it will buy you time to reduce the flow
  11. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    All this hiding behind class stinks of political bureaucracy to me...
  12. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    No one is "hiding behind class" a couple of us are trying to explain that not all boats are built like little sportsfish or recreational trawlers. The configurations and equipment that some seem to believe are necessary or required are neither required or even necessary.

    It would benefit some readers to study class rules and gain some insight into how and why larger boats are built they way they are and what skills and knowledge are expected to be available on those boats. This is all part of "knowing big boats" and would help clear the air of many misconceptions.

    Yogi was a perfect example of the fact that it takes more than construction standards and parts from Westmarine to keep a boat afloat, it takes seamanship, knowledge, leadership, and training.
  13. Gratton

    Gratton Member

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    Yep it can happen...

    DSCN1315555.jpg
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Well, it seems like these so called "classed vessels" seem to sink pretty darn easy compared to those pesky little sportfish and trawlers you talk down to. You really don't hear about too many Sportfish or yacht size motoryachts going down aside from the ones that try to jump reefs. This boat and Yogi....neither were in super rough seas for their vessel size. Heck that lowly Silverton bottom of the barrel sportfish peeled the entire foredeck off and was still floating high on it's waterline.

    Obviously a high water alarm in every compartment in this situation would've alerted the crew that something serious was going on right away, not after a stateroom was waist deep with water. How do you leave a water tight compartment open in a guest area anyways? The only ones on classed vessels this size that I know about with water tight doors are engine room and some lazzarette access.

    Quite frankly I too am tired of hearing people hide behind this "classed" nonsense. It's a MINIMUM standard the boat has to be built to. For example a Westport 130' PRODUCTION BOAT, has automatic bilge pumps in every water tight compartment, has 2 high water alarms in every compartment, AND has 2 large manual bilge pumps located in the Engine Room that can be valved to any water tight compartment.

    Every boat I've been on 100'-172' had high water alarms for every single compartment. Are you seriously going to do walk throughs on a daily basis pulling up carpeting, padding and floor hatches to check every single compartment for water levels? really?
  15. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Sorry J but the reality seems not be what you wish it were or believe it to be. Like I said, learn the systems on and the rules that govern "big boats" operation and construction then campaign for change if you feel you have a better idea.

    For what it's worth, neither Yogi or (speculating here) Serena sank because of design flaws. They sank because the crews did not prevent them from sinking.
  16. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    Which is what I also thought when I read 7 crew members on staff.
  17. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    You are clearly implying that high water alarms in every watertight compartment along with automatic pumps are not required by class rules.

    I can not come up with any logical reasoning behind this, can you?

    Since you are an expert on "big boats" why don't you enlighten us?

    As to watertight doors whether between compartments or in the hull, I can not imagine why such li saving devices would not be fitted with switches hooked up to warning lights on the bridge. Are they required by class or deemed not necessary

    It doesn't after if that 3" hole 3" below waterline is on a small 70' with west marine parts or on a 130 footer. You still will get 300 GPM inside the boat... The only difference is that you will have a little more time to cope with it.
  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    I have not worked on a large steel vessel with any form of automatic bilge pump. They have had bilge level sensors and sometimes two at different levels in some compartments. The bilge pumps are either direct suction or use an eductor type arrangement for the most part. The emergency engine room bilge pump is generally the largest capacity sea water pump available which is often one of the main engines.
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Understood and agree.
  20. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I am not implying that, I am stating categorically that is the case.

    I spent many years at school and at sea on little boats up to megayachts to supertankers and containerships learning the realities of "big boat" construction, maintenance, regulations, and operation. I don't think that is enough or that I am skilled enough to transfer that knowledge to a recreational boater in a few lines of text on a boating forum.

    My advice if you really want to learn is to go to school and go to sea on ship, learn it by doing it and studying it. If you want the Cliff's notes version and are willing to spend time learning rather than arguing, start with reading the class rules.

    If you spend the time to read IACS member class rules you won't have to imagine anything, you will learn what the facts are. You don't have to agree with them or like them but at least I hope you will learn that arguing with me about what you believe should be is a pointless exercise amounting to trolling, baiting, or simply being argumentative.

    What you cannot imagine is completely irrelevant, sorry if that sounds harsh but that is the reality.