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Yacht Design or graphic art?

Discussion in 'Yacht Renderings & Plans' started by Marmot, Jul 2, 2012.

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  1. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Is it time to exhume the thread about the difference between design and graphic arts?

    Just because someone can waltz a mouse around a computer graphics program doesn't mean he is a designer. A stylist perhaps, but when the endpoint of that person's knowledge and skill is a photorealistic representation of an idea that may or may not be possible to produce or even approach its intended purpose in reality, assuming the title of "designer" is a bit much.
  2. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Interesting question, I wonder how many, if any, real world yacht designers are working with this kind of 3D-renderings as their personal tool?
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    That is a good question as well. Will have to ask my NA friends.

    I may be mistaken but I always thought that the renderings were more for the marketing folks and to help sell the concept to a client.

    Once a client takes the pretty bait then it is up to the "boring" hardware guys to make it a reality ... or not.
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I know of at least one designer and a shipyard who get their rendering and water colours etc done by a third party - I know this as I was asked to pay for samples of interior proposals being submitted to the client for approval.

    My answer whilst written in longhand so as to not cause offense could have just as easily conveyed the same message a line of * on here would indicate.
  5. revdcs

    revdcs Senior Member

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    Lars, can I ask what you use? 3D or pencil and paper?

    I know there are plenty of your renderings on this forum and elsewhere, but what do you start with?
  6. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I have used Freehand, a 2D program since 25 years. From the first line to the last, all in 2D, but of course I draw up all three dimensions so the boats can be built.

    These days we are milling the moulds with a robot that requires 3D-models, why I have such made for all moulds. In this model we also put all stringers and bulkheads and finally we will have installation drawings included.

    For marketing purposes we can also use this 3D model for renderings by specialists.

    So all the real design, exterior and interior, is made by me in 2D.

    Attached Files:

  7. Just an Statement

    It is sure most of well known or older designers use 2D design or free hand even today, to start the sketches, but a digital Tablet today helps, most are digital today. In most industries I had contact, I used to handle with 3D CAD Catia V5 to do the projects, but the designers I've meet in Kaiserwerft and Hanse Yachts used to use Rhinocerus 3D for their designs as well, mainly making the hulls and superstructures, because the licenses are cheaper. My projects at Hanse Yachts, the H385 & H575, we have done all the Product Design Engineering Department, using tools like PLM Smartteam and 3D Cad Catia from Dassault Systems, but also Autodesk Autocad for the plannings and Deck Layouts. They use also DMU softwares in 3D for Rapid Visualization. I've known other italian yacht designers who did some works with Rhino as well. It is quite common the naval architects to use Tribon as CAD Tool in Ship industry. Meyer Werft is common to use also 3D Catia V4 and i had some contacts in Hamburg where most of Offshore wind Shipbuilding Companies construct their things using projects made with CAD Catia as well. Other 3D softwares are also known, but Photoshop and 2D illustrator is spread use as well in merchandising of Products to do realistic Renderings in base a 3D Data. This is what Judel/Vrolijk Design company do to the Hanse 3D Projects for the Sailing Boats Photo-realistic things. Maybe also many Graphic Design Softwares spread in web. So at End Yacht industries and Auto industries are both using VPM strucures as well for managing the thousand parts in the Data Bank. Actually there is no difference anymore in methods, if is an aircraft, auto or yacht industry. I managed all them in 3D CAD Catia V5 Laptop !
  8. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    So what you are saying is that designers today creates a yacht from an empty screen in a 3D program..?
  9. yes, you can undestand so. Most of parts are done so in all types of vehicles industries. For example the stearman seat was made from nothing in a simple design in rhinocerus 3d, then I took it, converted in Catia and from an empty model I did all again in a shape model for tooling in GFC in another 3D CAD, doing the whole design again, but in precise way, seeing for example draft of tooling and cosiderations for production. The rhino design from the girl, my ex-colleague, was not precise, just used as reference how the design more or less should be. But then most details were different decided, you can see the pictures spread in web. The results were in just 2 days of working stauning good. Then is ultra virtual realistic used in presentations as well. Actually, as designer, I prefer doing from nothing to have to reuse and redo the errors from others. Well 2 yachts is current in construction and are to be launch in August. So it's a fast procedure. The Rhinocerus Surfaces were in tolerance unprecise. I re-did all from nothing. This is because Rhino is freely than a CAD software, even when you have in Catia V6 industrial Design integrated as well, better also than Alias or ICEM Surf for shaping. Me as designer and engineer prefer to do all the same time regaring the engineering and shape form directions. It is much easier. I understand because the girl is fresh from university and is just few designers who are designer and engineer understanding both sides equally. Unfortunatly the big industry is devided in that, but a small yacht company can not reserve the right to pay high for that. It would be unaffordable in the cost of the more or less low price of some thousand kilo euros for a small sailing boat to make money.
  10. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    OK, so you are saying that you made a chair that somebody else had drawn up in 3D.

    Does anybody know of an established yacht designer who is creating entire yachts in 3D-programs?
  11. atomare

    atomare New Member

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    This is an interesting discussion.

    In our studio, 3d is essential to fix the design. - Interior and Exterior Design alike. - Of course it always starts out and goes on in a parallel sketching process, photoshop / illustrator renderings, mockups, models, etc. - But in the end and during the whole process 3d modelling is the tool that puts every decision together, both to present to the client and communicate to the shipyard or other parties and are the basis for the design / construction plans.

    To Marmots original question, I get, what you want to say with it, but imo there is a difference between a designer and a NA, engineer and the like. - We are trying to push for the ultimate experience, where technology and engineering is only a tool to achieve it. - Without visionary designers, yachts would probably still have round windows. - And without innovative engineers as well. ;)

    My two cents.
  12. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Perhaps we should simplify the question. Are there professional designers working only with 3D from the very first line?

    Meaning no other tools, like pencils, 2D programs, EPS, photoshop, copy machines, napkins or what have you.

    Just 3D-CAD, no more..?
  13. atomare

    atomare New Member

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    Curious as well... but I very much doubt it. That would be like: "I will only use this stick to draw up my designs. I know it has a lot of limits, but I will only use this one tool and nothing else." ^^ - I don´t think any professional would limit him or herself like that. - This would be art, not design.

    The original statement from Marmot can also be read with "pencil and paper" instead of "mouse" and the discussion would be the same, right ;) ...
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Essentially correct, yes.

    I chose mouse because it implies the very significant "aid" of computer generated visual effects that really have little if anything to do with the design but everything to do with the artistic rendering.

    I am not a computer gamer but from what I have seen of such things, there is little difference between some of the yacht "designs" generated by clever graphics programs and those of the intergalactic cruisers featured in games and films. The availability of a hyper-pencil doesn't mean that everything it produces can be realized any more than a word processor can make a writer out of a typist or a spreadsheet can make a millionaire out of an accountant.
  15. Thanks Atomare for the wonderful answers. It's like we professionally also do. To say trully i do all my work today direct in Computer. The Materials like Markers and rules are deposit in basement. We know that old generations still use pencils and paper as main tool, because they do not have abbility at all like the new digital generations' mind have. A question about culture 'grow-up with' to be common with those tools. Of course my career started with tools Markers like Copic or Pantone in a piece of paper, but if today we have in market a digital Tablet like Wacom & a gratis Alias Sketch Pro does cost almost nothing to do more with much more ressources, so we go in this direction. Of course tools, like pencils, 2D programs, copy machines, napkins are still common in all design offices. This is still an old complement, but also in factories CNC, 5 Axis drilling Machines do the pieces of motors, frames, wood etc, or you still do with water drilling mills to make a hole ? A digital computer with all dreams inside cost no more than €2000 and easier to carry, so I go this way. Others who still prefer to carry a baggage of heavy wonderful colored pencils in the arms can still go in the not most advance technics. Both have very good results. But 3D Model is very easy to change, and can go directly to the CNC machine. The piece of paper colored can not.

    If you still work so, go ahead, of course I believe there is a space for your boat in market, because the planet is huge and we have > 5 billion people in Earth wanting a private boat. ;)

    [​IMG] Source

    1. no. I did all in 3D. If you can not read good, consult an oculist. Please do not misrepresent.
    The difference was just 2 different 3D Modelling softwares, Rhino & Catia, both are CAD or CAS.
    2. yes, I know many.
  16. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    1. The always so polite MKM. Next time - think before you type.

    2. Can you name anyone?
  17. 1. For sure it was a good response from your no polite attitude first, provocating and trolling. But if you want to threat with your moderating powers, as you did now, just confirm that.

    2. Yes, but i will not lose my time with you.
  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    MKM - Maybe it is you who needs to have the eyes tested.

    What you wrote gives anyone reading it the impression the design which you finished off in Catia was made by an ex colleague in Rhino 3d originally.
  19. Kajan

    Kajan Senior Member

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    Before we lose sight of the subject, “Yacht Design or graphic art”. I would like to think that all great boats, yachts and ships out there started out as an idea in some ones head, Naval architect or not, long before the building aspect and various regulations came in to mind. To visualize the idea and make it available to others it might have started out as simple doodles with whatever means available, napkin or here at the YF in 2D/3D.

    Since not all of us are NA’s I believe the various concepts should be looked upon and judged based on that same fact.

    ...or to sum it all up, I guess you could say that if a design concept on a napkin becomes a reality, it’s a work done by a designer but until then it’s merely some doodles done by a stylist ;)
  20. Innomare

    Innomare Senior Member

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    For me, it starts with pencil and (lots of) paper. From there, it goes straight to 3D on computer. Unless there's a specific need, I skip the 2D on computer. It's only something which comes much later when 3D is getting defined and 2D drawings or renderings are derived from that for visualisation.

    But I can't imagine starting without a sketchpad, napkin, or whatever else is handy (paper with mm-lines is useful too).

    Anyone who's done this knows that you can end up with pretty strange 3D-curves when starting from what looks like perfectly normal top and side views. That's why I prefer to work in 3D - the thickness of the pencil lines in the first phase leaves enough room for adjustments (no false sense of exactness).

    Bruno