Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Yacht News, Feb 28, 2007.
That wasn't particularly nice.
Efficiency is the holy grail of merchant ship design. There have been ships scrapped without ever carrying a cargo after leaving the builder's yard because trade patterns or fuel costs made them inefficient in the trade for which they were designed.
The fastest merchant ships on the seas are the largest containerships in the liner trades. They have to be fast and efficient in order to meet an arrival and departure on the other side of the globe within hours of the published schedule. There is no profit in slow and inefficient.
No one who has sailed onboard a merchant ship would ever say they don't care how it rides. No one who knows anything about merchant shipping would say ride doesn't matter. Shippers are not too excited about a ship that destroys or loses their cargo either.
Just for the record, my bemused detractor, I earned my unlimited chief's ticket by starting out on seagoing tugs on the West Coast, Aleutians, and Bering Sea. I know what rough water is like on a tug.
I came to yachting from many years running containerships, RoRos, breakbulk, and tankers around the world.
I would say, "nice try" but it was just rather telling and a bit sad really.
Received a message this morning from one of our mods that a couple of posts in this thread were soft-deleted, pending my review. I've re-instated the posts because I know beyond the digital world, both of you are gentlemen. Right or wrong... both of you are extremely knowledgeable and we're fortunate that you've chosen to share the same on YF.
My concern is that others reading derogatory comments may be dismayed. We've lost a few members because of this. Sadly, if they are that thin-skinned, then they are missing the true value of a forum; information, entertainment and sometimes... a good reason to make popcorn.
There are bigger battles in the real world. Let's let our common interests be our strength.
Getting back on topic. Some conversions create magnificent yachts. I come from the Pacific Northwest and that region probably has more tugboat conversions than any place on Earth. I owned and lived for 5 years aboard a beautiful conversion of a 1944 wooden 20 meter tug that just dripped charm and comfort ... along with water from time to time. It meant a lot to me since it brought reality to a dream I had of using my own tugboat to visit the places I had only passed on a tug years before. Quite a few of the tug conversions in the PNW are owned by ex-towboaters because there is something so incredibly satisfying about cruising the inside passage in a tug. Especially the style used in that area. They were built with tons of polished brass and bronze with teak and mahogany interiors, pocket windows in the wheelhouse with leather straps to lift them and wooden wedges to keep them from rattling in tune with the slow turning engine.
I got into yachting through a company that converted wooden minesweepers into high end (for the time and place) charter yachts that they operated on eco charters in SE Alaska. They needed to replace one of the boats that had long passed its sell-by date and couldn't find a similar boat to convert so commissioned a newbuild of the same lines but built of aluminum. They purchased a clapped-out wooden minesweeper and removed the machinery to install in the new hull, with the intent of reproducing the experience as closely as possible.
The machinery has a charm all its own. The main engines are stainless steel (non-magnetic) and have bronze accessory cases, and bronze reduction gear cases. The engine rooms on those things are gorgeous. The anchor windlasses are bronze, the anchors themselves are bronze and self polish in sand.
The aluminum hull never quite matched the wooden boats for the smell (maybe for the better) and natural sound deadening qualities but the style and design of both the old and new are unique and that is one of many reasons why conversions can be so successful. A conversion brings a bit of nautical history with it, the dings and dents, the quirks of the machinery and the signs of many years or generations of crew working the boat simply can't be dupicated. They weren't designed by interior decorators.
The repro boat was built at a commercial yard on the Florida panhandle and I commissioned it and brought it around to Puget Sound then finished the charter season in Alaska. We put stabilizers on it so, like any good conversion, the ride was more suitable to the charter market. The higher freeboard was no problem, we used an "island" alongside just like cruise ships do and guests had no difficulty boarding the kayaks and fishing skiffs or getting back onboard, even the old folks.
There are regional styles and types of commercial vessels that make outstanding conversions. Like any build, some are economical, some cost more than a newbuild, but all have the potential for offering more to their owners than the cookie cutter boats that fill the slips in most megayacht marinas.
Knock off the BS, Henning. You are hitting me in the pocketbook!
My conversions have better and more access to the water and its toys than most new builds.
But the dueling conversation is none-the-less colorful.........
That would put a crimp in his post count ...
I think both parties have to be armed to call it a duel.
Old small Cruise Ships ---> Yacht conversion
Well, i can immagine a very good conversion, taking for example small old cruise ships with interesting hulls, like ITALIA of 1962, buying her for only US$ 2.5 MB, modifying the superstructure with less money and redoing all interior mainly only. At least the Hull is already done in a good 60m size. This for example could have been a nice one: http://cruiseship.homestead.com/italia.html
Economic efficiency is the Holy Grail. Economic efficiency is a compromise between hydrodynamic efficiency and revenue earning ability. If a commercial vessel can give up 10% hydrodynamic efficiency and gain 20% revenue, it is a net gain in economic efficiency. Large container ships, lets say with 800' waterlines (yes, I know, they get bigger, and they travel even slower compared to WL restrictions, and yes, I know about the gained efficiencies of going longer and narrower than 7:1, all irrelevent to this discussion because they never make use of the top end of that, only the bottom) will travel fast compared to a yacht at a max I've ever seen (outside the SL-7s) of 32 kts, that's around 1.14 *sqrt of their waterline length. Regardless the actual speed,THAT'S SLOW compared to their 37kt wave trap speed. Slow it down enough is all in relation to a vessels design resistance. Again, they create the advantage by being long to make up for their slow speed compared to resistance curve, slow here being a factor of hydrodynamic resistance. They make them big and long so they carry more tonnage per fuel. I haven't seen anybody yet do a yacht conversion out of a container ship.
OTOH, lets take an OSV for example which are becoming popular for shadow boat conversions. Take an old Halter 185, I've seen a couple of those done. they're around 180 on the waterline, even 1.14 would give it an economy cruise of 15 1/4 kts, yet unloaded with 4000hp, they only do 11 kts throttles down, loaded about 9.5. Your average 180' (195 OD+/-) LWL displacement yacht hull will do 18kts throttles down with that horsepower with an economy cruise of 14-15 kts. A yacht gains nothing by the added hull volume and prismatic coefficient because it isn't hauling cargo, it has around 20 people a few toys and a bunch of empty space.
If you're as brilliant as you think you are, you would be able to figure out what I am saying from the contexts I give, yet you always try to skew what I say to add an insult.
Yep, mud boats have excellent access to the water, now, would you care to demonstrate their efficiency with some real fuel/speed/mile numbers? While you're at it, will you sing us the praises of working to weather with one? BTW, are your boats classed with ABS, DNV, Lloyds.... and what class do they hold?
From a client's Captain on a trans-oceanic: "At 1550 rpm, cruising at 11 knots our combined fuel burn with gen is 55 gal/hr." That puts trans-Atlantic consumption at under 20k gals; much better than any of the yachts I ran from 50 - 80 meters. Your yacht fuel consumption and speeds are totally inaccurate (by experience) and you miss the fact that during conversion the OSV hulls enjoy a draft reduced by 3 - 4 feet. How do you suppose that effects drag/efficiency and resultant speed/fuel burn?
All our conversions are IACS classed, usually BV or ABS, hull & machinery.
According to a recent client, with our standard Flume roll stability installed, his yacht support vessel takes the seaway in all conditions much better than his recently built 50 meter from a well known Euro yard.
So, why then are you so against an owner having all the space he can imagine with commercial grade reliability and efficiencies, boasting luxury yacht interior comforts and delivered at fraction of the price in half the time?
And you do, Henning, exhibit a curiously alienating and combative tone. Unfortunate, as you seem to be a bright guy.
I don't pick fights, but I don't shy away from them either.
Henning made a point, that the vessel you have does not take advantage of the water. I agree. I tend to stay un-opinionated and did not comment. BUT, on that vessel I see tons of open space, without ANY yacht like amenities. Why do you have these huge open decks. I could see if the vessel had a heli-pad. But on a vessel that size, there should be plenty of nice seating areas, a jaccuzzi if not a swimming pool, exterior bars, exterior tables and chairs with umbrella's. To me it looks like a commercial ship on the exterior with teak decks. Now this is simply my opinion. But you haven't taken advantage of turning the exterior area's into beautiful places to see the water, which is why owners have yachts in the first place. If it was strictly about saving fuel, they'd buy a sailboat and forego a motoryacht altogether. Because any fuel burn on a yacht is simply a waste, it is not shipping goods, it does not have a purpose other then someone's recreational enjoyment.
One of my favorite yachts is my favorite because it has a nice cockpit and has a beautiful aft deck in front of the cockpit that is 6 feet above the water and has a beautiful seating area, table and un-obstructed view of the water behind the vessel. It also has a wonderful built in propane grill on the flybridge complete with sink and refrigerator and seating to enjoy a meal. Not because it can safely go through 30 foot seas, because no owner would want to be out in anything remotely rough in the first place.
Of course my fuel consumption did......but not even 5% more consumption then normal and it threw a black cloud you couldn't see through. In the grand scheme of things 5% more fuel consumption is probably less then if the vessel was running in 6-8 foot seas and the extra consumption from climbing waves and losing speed.......My entire point is, yes it is not running as efficient as it should, but the efficiency does not have to be that far off, in order to create a smokescreen.
I agree... seemed more like an university research one.
Steel is cheap.
There is no problem to carve out an old canoe stern and replace it with a swim platform with steps leading up to the main aft deck, forming a Euro-style transom.
Where you want add a Jacuzzi, BBQ, etc. is up to you and EZ as well.
gent's some of us like prodjects and a conversion is a good one i have personaly had 2 of them 1 was a tuna seiner and the other was a tuna bait boat i liked the process and the thought that goes in to each one , i have a friend of mine that sold a very nice feadship and bought a buy back boat (crabber ) and converted it ,it is quite unique he caries a sport fisher on deck and afte they launch it they use one of what used to be fish tanks that has been highly modified as a swimming pool , they refit the total interior now the state rooms are as good as any and vert functionable , with the 60000. gallons of fuel it caries it can service the sport boat and othe toys as needed they have a hyd , swim platform that goes down of the stern that can be adjusted for height and is full width the boat is an aft house from the outside some people consider it ugly and still too much commercial but the use they get out of it is un matched and from diffrent guest that i have spoken to they love the usabilty of the boat .
my youngest son thinks all we are doing getting bigger and more elaborat is just racing wallets and trying to inpress our selfs
have fun travler
Here is a conversion that seems to make sense. It was built as a shrimper and converted to an expedition yacht with three staterooms where the shrimp holds were once locted. With 18,000 gallons of fuel the range is pretty good. When I sold this yacht it was located in Antigua in the Carribbean and went on her own bottom to New Zealand. The new owner wanted a mothership for his sportfish, and to also tow a medium size barge to bring construction materials to an island. He reported to me that he was pleased with the boat.
This catamaran can be a very good yacht conversion also
42m Cruise/Dive Catamaran
This vessel is presented in ‘as new’ condition and to be delivered with all fishing and diving gear included, as well as the tenders. Equipped with 10 x cabins plus a library (that could be a converted in to a 4 berth cabin). Could realistically carry 24 Pax + 8 crew
Type of Vessel: Passenger / Cruise / Dive Vessel
Length: 42.0 m
Beam: 12.8 m
Draft Laden: 2.0 m
Rating: Coastal Limits
Builder: Challenge Marine, NZ
Location: South Pacific
Main Engines: 2 x Kelvin Marine TASC8
Power: 2 x 440 hp
Serv Speed: 10-12 Kts cruising speed
Gearbox: 2 x Reintjes WAF 440
Propulsion: 2 x Four bladed bronze
Generators: 3 - 2 x 70 kVa & 1 x 45 kVa
Fuel Cap: 38,000 L
Water Cap: 40,000 L
PAX Cap.: 24 overnight passengers total.
Cabins: 10 cabins + library
Crew Cap: Bridge crew + Cabin / Deck crew - 8 total.
Air Cond: Cruisair - individual cabin controls
Galley/Kiosk: Saloon/Bar with Phillips 42" wide screen plasma TV and
BOSE Lifestyle system 2.
PAX Facilities: Library with Phillips 26" wide screen plasma TV.
Fishing Gear/Sports Fish boats/Dive Compressor
Cabin Cond: 2 x Super King Class suites (+Phillips 26" plasma TV)
2 x Queen Island Class suites (+Phillips 23" plasma TV)
2 x Twin Island Class suites (+Phillips 23" plasma TV)
1 x Queen Channel Class suite (+Phillips 20" plasma TV)
3 x Triple Channel Class suites
Additional: SeaTel 2498SE Satellite TV.
First Aid: Ocean going vessel medical kit, Oxygen equipment
Delivery: in South Pacific
Asking Price: USD 4.7 Mill.
yacht conversions - Princess Iluka
on the subject of conversions has anyone seen the article about a 34.5m motor yacht Princess Iluka, in the March UK edition of Yacht International Originally built in timber in Australia , she was an stylish and attractive example of 1970s motor yacht, not dissimilar to a Feadship or Camenga . I can imagine that her interior was old-fashioned and her systems tired and that she was in need of a major refit but her new owner has changed her out of all recognition - presumably at huge expense - so that she now looks like any other modern super-yacht ....I ask myself "why"?