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Will Sunseeker make a trawler style?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by jonrd463, Jun 7, 2021.

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  1. jonrd463

    jonrd463 New Member

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    Oh, no doubt. My comments about Sunseeker aren't meant to be derogatory to the brand, because as you say, they aim for a specific image and clearly do it well. If money were no object, it wouldn't be much of a struggle for me, because I can't find anything substantial about them that would turn me off. If they do reasonably well for cruising a little farther than their planing range, all the better. I can't wait to see how their new 100'er turns out. That's my pie-in-the-sky lottery fantasy.

    As far as the off-topic debating, I don't mind so much. I can appreciate passion about a subject, and from my perspective, all arguments that have been given are spoken from your personal experiences, which does have value.
  2. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Just briefly, to avoid derailing the thread further - well, hopefully, at least:

    Correct. I thought it was clear, also because I specifically addressed my final comment to CJ.

    Here we can only agree to disagree.
    I know from the horse's mouth that they don't care one bit about optimizing the boat behaviour at hull speed, in any high performance boat.
    It just happens that a well designed boat, capable of 50+ kts, can also stay afloat when going slowly.
    No rocket science involved.

    You didn't answer my initial question on this: HOW did you make adjustments?
    Using the b/t because neither the wheel nor the autopilot are working isn't my idea of keeping a route "easily" - let alone in rough seas.

    I criticized the comments I didn't agree with, also because I fully agreed with everything JWY wrote instead, and she also disagreed with those very same comments.
    Guilty as charged for not having offered alternatives, but I couldn't think of any others on top of those already mentioned.
    Well, actually I can, but I'd never recommend to someone who only plans to cruise on your side of the Pond some boats that were never sold there, and for which there's no support at all.

    Fine, and your + CJ's answer, as I understand it, is "just fine".
    Mine is "acceptably well, but nowhere near as well as with a trawler".
    Both opinions of course, and as such both valid.

    Fair & square? :)
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Smaller trawlers (under say 70') generally wallow by the sheer nature that they have a displacement hull, rounded bilges, etc. And by that, they move in more directions.....whereas a MY will tend to rock back and forth in one direction.....either fore and aft......or side to side, or somewhere in between. The waves travel faster than the trawler does from anywhere on the stern and they have a bit more of a tendancy to hobby horse than a planing hull at slow speeds. Hence why you see steading sails on the small ones, and bulbous bows on more and more 50' and up. The bulbous bow provides lift forward of the boat and resistance to hobby horsing and also helps fuel economy a little. I'm not saying this ride is better or worse than a planing hull, I'm saying that I don't particularly like the feel/motion of it. I've done deliveries on trawlers of over 10,000 NM's.......well over...... I'd much rather a power cat than a trawler on a sheer ride/speed/efficiency type boat.

    As for the ride, ANY 66' motoryacht or trawler the ride would equally be miserable on the bow in 6-8' seas, unless the trawler had a bulbous bow to break it up. I was in 4-6' off the bow in a 60' defeaver once and it was hell in a hand basket. That being said the 66' Manhattan is one hell of a sea boat. Motoryachts you can put the trim tabs down at hull speed and they help reducing pitch a bit. I've put close to 10,000 NM's on a 66' manhattan. 2000 NM on a 52' mahattan, and 20,000 NM's on a 62' Predator. The sidepower curved stabilizer fins are fantastic and a huge part of that equation and provide excellent stability both fore and aft and side to side. I had to no problem running at cruise in the morning in the same 6-8' seas. I've done LOTS of LONG deliveries at hull speed in motoryachts as well. Countless ones to Central America and the carribbean. Hell I took a 2001 45' searay sedan bridge to St. Thomas from Ft. Lauderdale at hull speed 90% of the time in 2007, and a 62' Princess to Fort Lauderdale from the Panama Canal. I've done the same with many trawlers and power cats.

    Every boat is different. But I'd take any same sized SF at hull speed over any trawler in rough seas, every day of the week and twice on Sundays. Everyone thinks trawlers ride so great.......most of them I've run have been Taiwanese Tubs and typical Asian science experiments......same hull, lengthened by the factory to make 2 or 3 different lengths......keels, then shoes added to the keel after the build to fix stability issues. I ran one very popular builder model that the builder added a 7' cockpit on to make the boat a longer model, and just threw over 2,000lbs of lead in the cockpit bilge (and was still bow heavy) to counteract the bouyancy when they could've put a fuel tank or water tank instead, AND then had to put a heavy shoe onto the keel after the fact to counter act the instability. The boat handled like a total mess, and if you hit a counter current all of a sudden, it would do a 180 degree turn in 2 boat lengths if you didn't notice it happening and chop the throttles in 2 seconds and this one was around 60'. The Asians were NEVER at the forefront of hull design, never knew really how much weight they put into the build until it was built, OR where the weight was and COG really was located. The Asians have a habit of throwing whatever engine that was available into a build because it was available.......even if it had 50% more HP than hull speed would allow. I see so much trial and error in those boats. Grand Banks and Nordhavns tend to be the best of the bunch in the sub 60' range as far as seakeeping......There are exceptions, but I can name many others. Meanwhile I ran a 76' Northern Marine and it was a total animal, I had 10-12' seas on the bow and it was comfortable, comfortable and stable with them off of the beam as well.

    Mapism- I respect your viewpoints and you have a lot of knowledge in some areas, but when it comes to actual seatime on many different yachts and types of yachts that you speak of, you simply don't have it and it's clear. I've run more styles and yachts than you've stepped foot on at the dock.

    OP is talking about doing the Key's and Bahamas.....How many displacement hull trawlers do you see over there.....almost none......what does that tell you? You rarely see displacement hulled trawlers in the Florida keys or anywhere in the Bahamas.
  4. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Aaaaah...
    ...The old "I've seen it all so I know better than anyone else" line.
    C'mon, you can do better than clutching at straws like that.

    If you really want to put it personally rather than debate about content, do you know what your problem is?
    You fail to see colours.
    Your boat judgements are always either black or white, with no grey in between - let alone all other colours.
    That's what made you write that a 55' planing hull can pound in 1' waves like a 13' Boston Whaler.
    And now, that fin stabilizers provide "excellent stability" also fore and aft.
    Seriously? After all those miles under your belt?!?
    As John Fortune would put it, no price is too high, for this kind of mature wisdom.... :confused:
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2021
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, there are 55' that can pound in a 1' chop or 1-2' chop. Your lack of experience shows here as well. Our ocean and waves are different than yours, we'll get 1-2' chop at 1 seconds. The late model carver 52' I think it is, will pound in that, heck it pounds if you're at slow speed in the ICW and a 32' center console passes you on plane. The 50' and 55' Prestige aren't any better in a short spaced chop.

    If you read my statement "I'm not saying this ride is better or worse than a planing hull, I'm saying that I don't particularly like the feel/motion of it. " What does this state? That I DON'T like the ride. But yes the CURVED fin stabilizers help with the ride fore and aft a bit and so do trim tabs, when at hull speed on a planing hull. You do realize that all stabilizers help with that a little, they kick the fin out, which creates drag on one side or the other, to lessen the roll, but the drag also does stabilize the fore and aft a little by keeping the speed average better.........
  6. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Feel free to insist till the cows come home with your speculations about my experience, or lack of it.
    You will never hear me claiming for how many decades I've been boating, which types of boats I tried, and so forth.
    Two reasons for that, equally important:
    First, I couldn't care less about internet chest thumping in general.
    Second, I don't have the slightest interest (not anymore, at least) in impressing anyone and sell anything with all sort of patronizing claims which sadly are so popular among professionals in the pleasure boating industry.
    Even more so than among boaters themselves, in fact - enough said...

    But since your attitude is exactly the opposite, and you seem convinced that the second in particular is relevant to your activity, I will give you a suggestion even if I'm already expecting you to ignore it.
    Do not assume - EVER - that everyone will hang to your every word just because, as the old saying goes, the captain is always right, even when it's crystal clear that his/her competence is pushed to its limits.
    Honestly, that's not an approach which can make your own professional reputation any favour, in the long term.

    Did you ever hear the expression "when in a hole, stop digging?"
    Not even the producers of that equipment, who are very far from being shy to make pretentious claims, ever had the guts to pretend what you are now saying, which is quite simply total BS.
    And to save you the effort to dismiss what I'm saying based on your perception of my experience, just check out this builder report.
    Among other stuff, you will find the contribute to pitch reduction with their curved fins, and it's none.
    I mean, not "just a bit", or "tiny", or whatever.
    It's zero, zip, zilch, nada, just in case there's a part of 0,0% that you don't understand.
    Wadduthink, is also the builder experience not good enough, maybe?
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