Wild Salmon Stocks - Discussion Continued

I´ll look forward to that, but prepare the timing, an expresso goes fast to drink...

About the fishfarms, I saw a documentary on how much fish was needed to feed the salmons. I have also seen in reality when they give each salmon injections with antibiotics and have now got some mixed feelings, eventhough I still love salmon...

One name came up while reading through the linked information. Ransom Myers from UofA. That's one man whose veracity and integrity I'd vouch for in a heartbeat. If he has concerns then it's not based on spurious speculation.
Just noticed a notation mentioning that he's passed away. Sad.


Blackfish: any more links to recent research that you happen to have at hand?

Hi,

This thread is an eye opener alright and some of the info available from the various links and Google do not make pleasant reading at all.

We are all encouraged to eat more fish rich in Omega 3 Oils and Salmon is high on this list.

The question is what else are we eating when consuming this fish.

Here is something else I found where there is reference to these problems not being unique to Canada alone.

http://www.raincoastresearch.org/witness.htm

Thanks for that link K1W1. There's a few scientists signed on for changing the status quo.

Here is some more interesting reading...
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Oceans/Aquaculture/Salmon/
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/11/aquacultures-troubled-harvest
http://www.firstnationsdrum.com/Winter02/EnvProtest.htm
http://www.arranvoice.com/view_article.php?id=6250&code=8bp74m
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...2bn0AQ&usg=AFQjCNFhJbQH2gWSmhKredRQ1wKF8qTQKg
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,391523-2,00.html
http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node/269
http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/page/makeadifference
http://www.cna-ec.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=641&Itemid=32
http://www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/problems.shtml
http://www.mapuche-nation.org/english/html/environmental/enviro-51.htm

I also think it is foolosh to also introduce Atlantics here on the Pacific coast especially in ocean pens. A few have escaped and are just not supposed to be here. They have chosen Atlantics because the research by the farming companies have been done on that species (plus they grow quicker).
Doesn't this fly into the face of invasive species spread?
The boating public are urged to wash down our boats when going from one body of water to another to stop the spread of various invasive species.
Shipping companies have water ballast issues to stop the spread of invasive species from further afield.
Again, my thoughts

Here's another interesting site plus a simple video to explain the issue with the sea lice to people new to this.
http://www.watershed-watch.org/sealice.html
Blackfish...my apologies I haven't read your link yet, but I will.

Been reading through that "nowhere to hide" pdf.
Did you see what the population forecast for 2100 in the northwest looks like?
Good Lord!

I checked to see if Soylent Corp was available so I could just use the name to incorporate a little holding company under that name. Already taken.

From 14 to 85 million??
Yuck!...what the heck will we all be doing?
Desolation Sound may have to change to Population Sound!
Gonna have to look for that movie.
"Nowhere to Hide" does indicate several contributing factors for salmon declines.

Now we're getting towards a partial solution. Put a sock on it would ya? There's enough of you already. No wonder the fish are getting crowded out.
I'll be long gone by 2100 but if I made to that point I can't even begin to imagine what traffic in Vancouver would be like.

Some general Biological principals to consider here.

When ever you have a density of prey animals; predator, parasite, and infection causing organisms population levels rise to take advantage of it (the fences keep predators at bay here, the drugs reduce the damage from parasites and infection, but do not completely eliminate the issues).

When you increase levels of predation, infection, and parasitism you increase mortality, especially among young, old, injured, and malnourished fish. (predators are not boosted by salmon farms, they raise the young atl. salmon in tanks on land, the mortality from disease and parasites is too great in the ocean, elderly salmon are all up river, penned salmon are protected from injury by predators, and penned salmon are all well fed, wild salmon occasionally have trouble finding food).

Domesticated animals have always lowered the carrying capacity of the surrounding environment, from sheep transmitting blue tongue to antelope to chickens passing blackhead to turkeys to goats passing intestinal worms to deer to domesticated poultry diseases wiping the Carolina parakeet off the face of the planet it happens again and again.

With these things in mind its almost unfathomable to think that farmed salmon pens would not negatively impact the wild salmon around them, Wild salmon are hit when they are most vulnerable. I run computer simulations of populations (yay programming skills), and given the life cycle of sea lice and salmon and salmon predators and prey it is impossible to come up with a set of variables where wild salmon pens do not reduce the carrying capacity for wild salmon (I can put up my calculations if you like, I ran this program a few years ago but I keep backups on CD of everything, no promises as to how well you will understand).

This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if we reduce the capacity for wild salmon but also reduce our consumption we can stop stocking salmon fry, and if we do that the selective pressure on salmon will increase and they will grow more hardy against the problems they face, however I grew up on wild salmon and cannot stand farmed salmon, I would rather have cod; Salmon do not taste right when fed a diet of herring. I remember the first time my family had farmed salmon, someone else cooked it, we all had a little, and all decided that it was absolutely terrible, and politely declined seconds, wasn't till months later we were exposed to farmed salmon with a label and figured out that that is why it tasted so bad.

Hi,

Here is the opportunity for you to demonstrate your actual knowledge in a subject you say you have practical experience in.

Why not post this info if it is relative to the thread and give an explanation in laymans terms for the non almost scientists amongst the YF Members?

I second that. Thanks Opcn for participating a thread in which you have some expertise.

Opcn,

NOW you see why I didn't remove your membership.

Agreed - now's the time to play to your strengths and help all of us to learn something new.

It might take me a few days to find it, its spread out on 2-3 of 432 numbered CD's, as this was before I switched to DVD's.

I don't suppose this board is unicode compatible is it?

vB is HTML based, thus displaying Unicode is only limited by fonts. But then, given your previous opinions on how YF should be run, you already knew that, didn't you...

Opcn, you would do much better sticking to subjects you know, as opposed to being a know-it-all. Tread lightly from here.

I know I have unicode characters in the equations and I wanted to know if I would have to remove them, thats all.

FACT IS the decline of the wild stocks is a result of not just one culprit, but a vast number of contributors from logging, to watershed destruction from hydroelectric providers, to urban growth, to aboriginal harvest, to commercial over-fishing to global climate change, and yes Brian, even us sport fisherman!


I do not claim to be an expert in this but concerned none the less and I am full of questions and comments (maybe some BS too).
I pretty much agree with your comments Brian.
As I mentioned before we are the cancer upon this earth that is messing up things.
I think we can all do something to reduce our footprint, and it starts with individuals making efforts everywhere.
For example, we've taken out our flush-out toilet and installed a portable unit so we can dispose of it properly. Some boaters and even scuba divers we speak with say not to worry about it...but I just cannot agree with pumping it out to the sea (even though Victoria does).
My salmon catch hasn't been much (one Coho in '98 & a Spring last year) but I can see the sport fishery having an impact as well as all other parties you have mentioned above.
Hunting in BC is done by a sort of lottery isn't it? Could we adopt this for sport fishery?
In Alaska, there are restrictions on commercial fish boat sizes, could this be employed here as well?
I do agree that farmed salmon have their place for the consumer but do you think on land would be better?
As for the watershed and logging, I can only hope that they have cleaned up their act over the years but who knows what goes on out there beyond the public's eye in those remote places on our coast.
Opcn, are you going to add your findings here? Make sure it's understandable to us laymen.