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Wild Salmon Stocks - Discussion Continued

Discussion in 'YachtForums Yacht Club' started by Blackfish, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I´ll look forward to that, but prepare the timing, an expresso goes fast to drink...

    About the fishfarms, I saw a documentary on how much fish was needed to feed the salmons. I have also seen in reality when they give each salmon injections with antibiotics and have now got some mixed feelings, eventhough I still love salmon...
  2. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    One name came up while reading through the linked information. Ransom Myers from UofA. That's one man whose veracity and integrity I'd vouch for in a heartbeat. If he has concerns then it's not based on spurious speculation.
    Just noticed a notation mentioning that he's passed away. Sad.


    Blackfish: any more links to recent research that you happen to have at hand?
  3. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    This thread is an eye opener alright and some of the info available from the various links and Google do not make pleasant reading at all.

    We are all encouraged to eat more fish rich in Omega 3 Oils and Salmon is high on this list.

    The question is what else are we eating when consuming this fish.

    Here is something else I found where there is reference to these problems not being unique to Canada alone.

    http://www.raincoastresearch.org/witness.htm
  4. Brian

    Brian Senior Member

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    Thanks for that link K1W1. There's a few scientists signed on for changing the status quo.

    Here is some more interesting reading...
    http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Oceans/Aquaculture/Salmon/
    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2001/11/aquacultures-troubled-harvest
    http://www.firstnationsdrum.com/Winter02/EnvProtest.htm
    http://www.arranvoice.com/view_article.php?id=6250&code=8bp74m
    http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...2bn0AQ&usg=AFQjCNFhJbQH2gWSmhKredRQ1wKF8qTQKg
    http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,391523-2,00.html
    http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node/269
    http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/page/makeadifference
    http://www.cna-ec.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=641&Itemid=32
    http://www.salmonfarmmonitor.org/problems.shtml
    http://www.mapuche-nation.org/english/html/environmental/enviro-51.htm

    I also think it is foolosh to also introduce Atlantics here on the Pacific coast especially in ocean pens. A few have escaped and are just not supposed to be here. They have chosen Atlantics because the research by the farming companies have been done on that species (plus they grow quicker).
    Doesn't this fly into the face of invasive species spread?
    The boating public are urged to wash down our boats when going from one body of water to another to stop the spread of various invasive species.
    Shipping companies have water ballast issues to stop the spread of invasive species from further afield.
    Again, my thoughts
  5. Brian

    Brian Senior Member

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    Here's another interesting site plus a simple video to explain the issue with the sea lice to people new to this.
    http://www.watershed-watch.org/sealice.html
    Blackfish...my apologies I haven't read your link yet, but I will.
  6. Blackfish

    Blackfish Guest

    If you are looking for scientific facts and not environmental rhetoric, please go here: http://www.pacificsalmonforum.ca/pdfs-all-docs/NowheretoHide.pdf This is the report from the Pacific Salmon Forum their website is here: http://pacificsalmonforum.ca/ . Please also watch the video here: http://www.pacificsalmonforum.ca/research/index.php

    Nobody, including myself is stating that there are NO potential risks to Salmon Farming. The question is what are the risks, can we mitigate them, what are the benefits, and do they outweigh the mitigated risks. Again, given that the worldwide demand for salmon is ever increasing and the current state of the wild fishery is at best "endangered", do we want to continue to rape the wild stocks by commercial fishing? Or, if proven "relatively safe" should we not consider relying on aquaculture to supply this demand?

    Best regards, Brian.
  7. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    Been reading through that "nowhere to hide" pdf.
    Did you see what the population forecast for 2100 in the northwest looks like?
    Good Lord!

    I checked to see if Soylent Corp was available so I could just use the name to incorporate a little holding company under that name. Already taken.
  8. Brian

    Brian Senior Member

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    From 14 to 85 million??
    Yuck!...what the heck will we all be doing?
    Desolation Sound may have to change to Population Sound!
    Gonna have to look for that movie.
    "Nowhere to Hide" does indicate several contributing factors for salmon declines.
  9. Codger

    Codger YF Wisdom Dept.

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    Now we're getting towards a partial solution. Put a sock on it would ya? :D There's enough of you already. No wonder the fish are getting crowded out.
    I'll be long gone by 2100 but if I made to that point I can't even begin to imagine what traffic in Vancouver would be like.
  10. Opcn

    Opcn Senior Member

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    Some general Biological principals to consider here.

    When ever you have a density of prey animals; predator, parasite, and infection causing organisms population levels rise to take advantage of it (the fences keep predators at bay here, the drugs reduce the damage from parasites and infection, but do not completely eliminate the issues).

    When you increase levels of predation, infection, and parasitism you increase mortality, especially among young, old, injured, and malnourished fish. (predators are not boosted by salmon farms, they raise the young atl. salmon in tanks on land, the mortality from disease and parasites is too great in the ocean, elderly salmon are all up river, penned salmon are protected from injury by predators, and penned salmon are all well fed, wild salmon occasionally have trouble finding food).

    Domesticated animals have always lowered the carrying capacity of the surrounding environment, from sheep transmitting blue tongue to antelope to chickens passing blackhead to turkeys to goats passing intestinal worms to deer to domesticated poultry diseases wiping the Carolina parakeet off the face of the planet it happens again and again.

    With these things in mind its almost unfathomable to think that farmed salmon pens would not negatively impact the wild salmon around them, Wild salmon are hit when they are most vulnerable. I run computer simulations of populations (yay programming skills), and given the life cycle of sea lice and salmon and salmon predators and prey it is impossible to come up with a set of variables where wild salmon pens do not reduce the carrying capacity for wild salmon (I can put up my calculations if you like, I ran this program a few years ago but I keep backups on CD of everything, no promises as to how well you will understand).

    This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if we reduce the capacity for wild salmon but also reduce our consumption we can stop stocking salmon fry, and if we do that the selective pressure on salmon will increase and they will grow more hardy against the problems they face, however I grew up on wild salmon and cannot stand farmed salmon, I would rather have cod; Salmon do not taste right when fed a diet of herring. I remember the first time my family had farmed salmon, someone else cooked it, we all had a little, and all decided that it was absolutely terrible, and politely declined seconds, wasn't till months later we were exposed to farmed salmon with a label and figured out that that is why it tasted so bad.
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Here is the opportunity for you to demonstrate your actual knowledge in a subject you say you have practical experience in.

    Why not post this info if it is relative to the thread and give an explanation in laymans terms for the non almost scientists amongst the YF Members?
  12. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    I second that. Thanks Opcn for participating a thread in which you have some expertise.
  13. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    Opcn,

    NOW you see why I didn't remove your membership. ;)
  14. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    Agreed - now's the time to play to your strengths and help all of us to learn something new.
  15. Opcn

    Opcn Senior Member

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    It might take me a few days to find it, its spread out on 2-3 of 432 numbered CD's, as this was before I switched to DVD's.

    I don't suppose this board is unicode compatible is it?
  16. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    vB is HTML based, thus displaying Unicode is only limited by fonts. But then, given your previous opinions on how YF should be run, you already knew that, didn't you... :rolleyes:

    Opcn, you would do much better sticking to subjects you know, as opposed to being a know-it-all. Tread lightly from here.
  17. Opcn

    Opcn Senior Member

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    I know I have unicode characters in the equations and I wanted to know if I would have to remove them, thats all.
  18. Blackfish

    Blackfish Guest


    Hi OCPN, thank you for your contribution to this thread. Your comment that "its almost unfathomable to think that farmed salmon pens would not negatively impact the wild salmon around them" is logical. Again, the real question that we have to ask is "to what degree?". What the real concern is IMHO, is what is the chance of survival of the wild stocks in general given the wide number of contributors to their decline? None the least is the actual commercial fishing industry who can and do wipe out full genetic strains in a single seine set. The Salmon farming industry truly both cares and has a stake in wild salmon survival just as much as the commercial fishing industry does, but has done a pathetic job in educating the public in their position. For many, they see salmon farmers as evil polluters with no environmental conscience. This is simply not the case, in fact the cleaner the environment around a farm equates to better production lower disease and higher profits. One needs to look at who the original "anti-fish farmers" were and what REALLY was their motive? Most of this early bad press came from the commercial fleet, in those days it was obvious that their beef came from the fact that they saw the aquaculture industry as competition. In latter days they saw salmon farmers as an easy scapegoat to blame for declining stocks. FACT IS the decline of the wild stocks is a result of not just one culprit, but a vast number of contributors from logging, to watershed destruction from hydroelectric providers, to urban growth, to aboriginal harvest, to commercial over-fishing to global climate change, and yes Brian, even us sport fisherman! My personal position is that I believe that aquaculture can be part of the solution by partially supplying the ever growing demand of salmon, not to mention the benefits to the economy during these challenging times.

    As for the difference in taste between farm and wild fish, I too would rather eat a wild Coho cooked within hours of being caught over a farmed salmon any day! But to many people around the world who have not been blessed with the experience of eating a fish right out of the ocean, farm salmon is a delicious source of highly sought after protein.

    Best regards, Brian.
  19. Brian

    Brian Senior Member

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    FACT IS the decline of the wild stocks is a result of not just one culprit, but a vast number of contributors from logging, to watershed destruction from hydroelectric providers, to urban growth, to aboriginal harvest, to commercial over-fishing to global climate change, and yes Brian, even us sport fisherman!


    I do not claim to be an expert in this but concerned none the less and I am full of questions and comments (maybe some BS too).
    I pretty much agree with your comments Brian.
    As I mentioned before we are the cancer upon this earth that is messing up things.
    I think we can all do something to reduce our footprint, and it starts with individuals making efforts everywhere.
    For example, we've taken out our flush-out toilet and installed a portable unit so we can dispose of it properly. Some boaters and even scuba divers we speak with say not to worry about it...but I just cannot agree with pumping it out to the sea (even though Victoria does).
    My salmon catch hasn't been much (one Coho in '98 & a Spring last year) but I can see the sport fishery having an impact as well as all other parties you have mentioned above.
    Hunting in BC is done by a sort of lottery isn't it? Could we adopt this for sport fishery?
    In Alaska, there are restrictions on commercial fish boat sizes, could this be employed here as well?
    I do agree that farmed salmon have their place for the consumer but do you think on land would be better?
    As for the watershed and logging, I can only hope that they have cleaned up their act over the years but who knows what goes on out there beyond the public's eye in those remote places on our coast.
    Opcn, are you going to add your findings here? Make sure it's understandable to us laymen.
  20. Blackfish

    Blackfish Guest

    Hi Brian, thank you for meeting me in the middle. Just goes to show that most boaters can find common ground, just as long as we don't find it with our bottoms we'll be fine! In the past several years I came to the point where I all but stopped salmon fishing just because I knew how frail the resource had become and it made me so sad to to boat one of these magnificent creatures. I have been fishing these waters since the late sixties and have seen the population of Coho and Chinook go from abundant to beyond sparse. In the early 80's the sport fishing in your area was spectacular! I remember days fishing off Bertha Rock on the outside of Thormanby Island, mooching for Coho and have double and triple headers several times a day. There used to be so many herring in those days that guys would rake for their bait! Now even in the middle of August you can go all day without so much as a nibble.

    If the decision was left to me I would completely shut down the fishery to all but the natives for at least eight years to allow the runs to replenish. On top of that commit large amounts of resources to repair riparian areas and waterways. I would also level large fines at environmental offenders, and indeed continue to monitor all types of aquaculture to ensure that all was being done to limit negative effects and promote environmental health. I would look at all of this as short term pain for long term gain.

    ...But so far nobody is asking me!

    Best regards, Brian.