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Why not a used Azimut?

Discussion in 'Azimut Yacht' started by Zud, Jun 1, 2015.

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  1. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    We have to clarify somethings here. that a bird told me that the Azimut 48 in that video (with many issues) is from the made in Brazil stable.
    Not that this should matter, once you put your signature it could also be build on the moon, one still should deliver his usual or better to standards.

    Azimut are good boats, I think they compare quite well to Princess, Fairline, and Sunseeker. These four are in some areas of sort the three major builders in Europe for medium to large sizes from 15 to 35 meter.
    That means that the average Joe knows about these boats.
    After of these four I think I put Fairline on top, Princess second, Azimut and Sunseeker together at third.
    These four are not the best builders in Europe, they are simply the most known. There is a lot of builders in Italy and a lot of them are better to Azimut with a premium on price reflecting this.
    Since Princess has gone to infusion I have heard a couple of horror stories, but that is all I can say since I have not seen any of these.

    I have never seen an Azimut or its entry level brand Atlantis delaminate (we have a lot of them here), seen a couple with osmosis though, and the electrics in Europe are ok.
    Old Azimuts before 2000 (more or less) have same hull designer as Princess Fairline ie. Bernard Olesinski, and later models are designed or consulted by Micheal Peters hence the good handling.
    Hope this clarify somethings. Buying used you always have the advantage of surveying any boats.
    Happy shopping.
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Liam's post is a reminder of one important aspect of Azimut. There is a huge perception difference in the US vs. Europe. He's not the only one in Europe I know who likes them and feels they offer good service. On the other hand, in the US the service is generally considered poor and the majority of US boats are not Italian, but from Brazil.
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I honestly think from a quality standpoint, I'd put Sunseeker first, Princess and Fairline fighting for 3rd and Azimut last. The nagging little problems with them and the lack of consistency in build is why I'd put them last. Azimut subcontracts out all of the electrical and joinery work. You have over 6 different subcontractors doing the electrical, so each boat is wired totally differently, components are installed in totally different places, different components are used, and none of the subcontractors follow the wiring diagrahm.

    I must say that I have not run a newer Fairline.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    While I don't have nearly the experience with some of the boats in this range others of you have my ratings on some carry less value. I'm rating for the US market specifically. Regardless I'd group something like this.

    Top Quality-Hatteras
    Very good-Sunseeker, Riva, Viking (SF), Neptunus.
    Average-Princess, Prestige, Ferretti.
    Problematic-Azimut, Lazzara, Marquis

    Now with most of these there are some that you'd find better and some you'd find worse. A lot of that would be governed by the level of maintenance undertaken by the previous owner.
  5. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I am not a fan of Azimut but it is a fact they have really pushed design forward in the last two decades and everyone has more or less copied or tryed to do it.

    Just to give one tip, when they launched the 55 in 2000 for example it was the first yacht of sub 20 meters to have a full beam midships owners cabin.
    As far as I know Azimut is still one of the (if not the) biggest spenders in R&D of all builders Worldwide.

    Also the deck and hardware used on it, see railing thickness, and cleat sizes is in most cases better to the brits. I consider this also a sign of quality.
    Sunseeker have better accessibility in service areas but a Princess and Fairline run surely better at sea.
    The last good running Sunseeker was the 50 Camargue the ones after this have not been so special.

    To be honest some Americans love Azimuts more then Europeans, they do have a huge market in the US and most times sell over 100 boats a year in the North American continent.
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    For MarineMax's 2013 year, Azimut accounted for about $76 million or so in sales. Maybe 50 boats or so. Hard to guess number of boats.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2015
  7. Mark Woglom

    Mark Woglom Senior Member

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    I think you have it wrong with Lazzara. I think the build quality of my 2005 68 was better than most of the other brands we looked at, and we looked at many of the brands you mentioned. Hatteras is better built/engineered, but the designs tend to be dated IMO. If you compare nearly any major system in a Lazzara, to that in a Marquis or Azimut, the Lazzara will win out, big time. Door hardware, finishes, plumbing systems, electrical systems, service access, redundancy, ease of use, and strength of build are very, very good. They got the little things right, like great water pressure in the shower, toilets that quietly flush everything, and real, full size appliances in the galley. Everything is bigger, significantly more robust, and better engineered. Even the owner's manual is exceptionally well put together. The only dumb engineering I've found was the method of installing the headliner, which we had to fix throughout the boat. Aside from that, there isn't much that I can point to where I say, "why'd they do that". In the 3 years we've owned the boat, I can't recall any repair where I blamed Lazzaras engineering or systems, aside from the headliner issue.

    We were very interested in Princess and Sunseeker, but they fell short in many areas, particularly service access, systems robustness, redundancy, and usability for a US owner. None of the others we looked at had stabilizers, which make a huge difference, even with passing boat wake on the ICW.

    In their prime, I think Lazzara built one of the higher quality boats out there.

    I suspect later Lazzara boats might have had more issues, as they ran into financial problems. I met one owner with a Lazzara Breeze, who basically said their brand new boat was constantly broken, to the point where Lazzara had assigned a full time mechanic to travel with them. I suspect building new models without strong financial footing led them astray.
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    That's exactly why I put Lazzara in the bottom group, plus some didn't have the greatest ride. But basically I would see Lazzara as a very inconsistent brand over their life from year to year and from boat to boat.

    Obviously, your Lazzara was a well built and solid performing boat. I have no doubt there are others.

    I'd be cautious of any builder without the financial footing needed as weak finances do generally end up accompanied by slips in quality.

    As to Hatteras, I was just talking build quality and not talking styling on any boats as it's very much a matter of personal taste.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The reason Princess and Sunseeker don't have stabilizers (and most of the Euro brands), is there is no need for them. They simply don't rock and roll like most of the MY brands. I think a lot of it has to do with home many chines they have on the Euro hulls. Lazzara's ride has never been considered great. I do agree about the systems compared to Marquis and Azimut. etc.
  10. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Who makes Squadrons? Any good? Saw one this morning. It looked med or Brit. Just wondering.

    ,rc
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Fairline
  12. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    A bit of history on Fairline. They were at one time a formidable force among British boatbuilders. However, in 2005, they went through an LBO which had the results you often see, with them ending up with over £40 million of debt. Needless to say paying that back was impossible. With the economic conditions of 2008 and 2009, they were searching for a buyer. In 2011 they were "purchased" by turnaround specialists Better Capital and a lender, RBS, who exchanged debt for equity.

    Their representation in the US is very small now compared to their British counterparts, Princess and Sunseeker.
  13. ky1e

    ky1e Guest

    This is an old thread but I am a new member and am considering buying an Azimut. I am looking at a 2009 85 Flybridge, a 2008 95 Flybridge, and a 2004 116. Do the issues mentioned occur in their larger yachts like the 85, 95 and 116? It seems like most of these complaints have been with boats in the 45-55 range where vikings and hatteras are an option, however in the large yacht size it seems Azimut seems to have a pretty good reputation. I am new to super yachts so i could be uninformed. Please enlighten me.
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    The first question would be if you're in the US. If so, the answer is "yes." Now, you'd obviously be well out of warranty and perhaps with a good survey and selecting good shipyards for your service, you could be happy with one. The criticisms are a combination of Azimuts delivered to the US plus their service and warranty under Marine Max. You hear about the issues on smaller boats simply because most of what they've sold her has been smaller.

    If you're in Europe, none of this applies.
  15. ky1e

    ky1e Guest

    Thank you. I like the flybridge design, what manufacturers in the 80-115' size do you recommend that have better build quality? Sunseeker and what else? I live in FL, the yacht would be used in FL, the Keys, Bahamas. I like to fish and dive and would use the yacht as a mothership to my 42' center console. We were going to buy a house in the Keys but are looking at the yachts as an alternative. I have been boating for a long time but all on center consoles. Budget is in the $2-$4MM range.

    I was surprised that a 2008 95 Azimut was listed at $3.5MM, 2004 116 at $3.9MM and both brokers sounded very open to major negotiating and highly encourage any offer. $1MM less than asking may not be out of the question. Now I know why.
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, the larger ones have lots of issues too. Some has been rectified by the crew on the larger ones, IF the boat has had a good crew. But some cannot.

    In your price range I'd take a look at the older Hatteras 92's and 100's, they're a solid boat. Westport 112's are another good choice. Sunseekers as well. Burgers in that size range also.
  17. ky1e

    ky1e Guest

    Thx Capt J! I'll take a look.

    Edit-- I just did take a look and the W's were out of my price range, the Hats looked too much like an old persons home. No Burgers available in my size/price range. Sunseeker seems like the best bet if I stray from the Mutt. I'll keep looking :)
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2016
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    To say in the price range on anything over 100', you're going to have to go older. A Westport 112 in the 1999-2002 range. Or smaller, a Pacific Mariner 85 or Sunseeker in that size range. Ferretti, Hargrave, Cheoy Lee. Outer Reef, Hatteras, Viking.

    First, what is your intended use for the boat? You're talking about such a size range and the operating costs are far different from an 85' to a 115'. Just the required crew. On an 85' you may go with a crew of 2 and on a 115' you're talking a crew of 5 in all likelihood. Your cruising grounds help not only on size but determining what draft you can live with. Coastal or Caribbean?
  19. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    If you like the style of an Azimut I think you are more into a European design.
    So a Sunseeker or Princess and Astondoa should do the work for you and would be a similar price tag in the used market as an Azimut.
    If you can stretch your budget a bit I would also look at the big Ferretti which should give an extra step in quality.
    Ferretti 880 or 830 is a fantastic yacht IMO.
    With a bit more budget one can also start looking at other more custom European brands as Sanlorenzo, Posilllipo, Falcon, Maiora etc etc