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Why Hatteras yachts are heavy?

Discussion in 'Hatteras Yacht' started by nilo, Sep 23, 2006.

  1. nilo

    nilo Senior Member

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    I have just read the new thread containing news about new Hatteras 72. Two facts astonished me. Although there are attributes to new building techniques and how this is helping Hatteras to reduce weight, when I compare Hatteras to similar sized boats of other builders, this is a rather heavy boat. She weighs 160000 lbs, which is a hefty 72.5 tons. For a comparison a Ferretti 76 weighs 54 tons.

    Furthermore, I have compared to the tank test results of Moonen 94 alu with the Hatteras’ figures. Moonen is a semi displacement hull and is by far heavier. She will attain close to 27 knots with cat 32 acerts at half load and will cruise at 24+ knots. Moonen takes 17000 liters, approximately 4500 gallons of fuel; so half load will be way above 100 tons.

    Any comments to enlighten us on the issue?

    Nilo
  2. LUCKY DAVE

    LUCKY DAVE New Member

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    Heavy Hatted

    Hatts are heavier than comparable yachts because they are built like tanks. Wait thirty years, and compare the boats you named. The Hatt will still be in excellent structural condition, the others will be past their prime, if they're still afloat.
    Many 40+ year old Hatts are still going strong, pounding through the chop like new lesser vessels with they could, still in fine form.
    Light weight makes a boat faster on flat water, but isn't your friend on rough water. Light weight boats bob like corks when it's rough, giving their passengers a beating. In massiveness lies seakindliness.
    Adventurer II likes this.
  3. nilo

    nilo Senior Member

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    hatteras weight

    I would like to come forward with some quick comments:

    1- This was before using materials like aramat and carbon fiber, which are light and very durable. Even todays tanks use them and they are much lighter and maneuverable then II. WW tanks.
    2- In the article, there was a claim that Hatteras is introducing a new technic to make their boats lighter, which actually is not the case even when you compare it with an aluminum hull.
    3- If you want to cope with high seas, why to go with a planning hull, which is neither good for speed, nor for sea kindness. Then I suggest one should go for a semi-displacement aluminum hull.
    4- My comparison of speed with a semi-displacement aluminum hull also dictates that Hatteras is doing something different, if not wrong; but coming short in the results.

    So, I wanted to find out what Hatteras is doing correct in comparison with above facts? My approach is sincere and genuine and not to criticize but to open up a discussion for Hatteras people to enable them search a new way of updating their products. Otherwise, there is the risk of loosing this historical and important brand for good.

    Nilo
  4. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Before any of these boats are launched and tested out, we shouldn´t jump to conclusions I think. The hull shape of the Hatteras and the Moonen seems to be pretty similar so we´ll better wait and see which one comes closer to the predicted figures...;)
  5. LUCKY DAVE

    LUCKY DAVE New Member

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    My comments are not aimed at the design, but rather at the overall build quality. Hatteras yachts are built to a uniformly high standard, even the smaller ones. Few yacht builders can honestly claim that.
    High build quality, and attention to construction detail where the owner can't see it are the things that make Hatts stand the test of time on the water.
    Look around at any marina. How many 30-40 year old Hatteras yachts do you see? How many yachts of the same age in the same condition from other yards do you see?
    Adventurer II likes this.
  6. Adventurer II

    Adventurer II New Member

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    This is an old discussion but it's still relevant. Recently, I discovered that Hatteras was sold to Bass Pro Shops (affiliate) (spring of 2021). That will be the end of the nice heavy Hatteras yachts. Bass Pro will ruin the Hatteras brand as they did the Ranger brand.
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2022
  7. Adventurer II

    Adventurer II New Member

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    Also, I'm not a new member. Although I haven't posted often to this forum, I did join in May of 2016.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Well apparently Hatteras isn’t building motoryachts these days which is a shame because after years of uninspiring designs they had finally made some nice modern attractive boats in the 75-100 range.

    indeed there are still plenty of early 70s vintage Hatteras around despite many being neglected due their low value

    my 53MY is a 1970, one of the first 53s Hatteras built after tweaking the original 50 to 53 feet. During Irma in 2018, it took out a piling on port side. The hours and hours of rubbing had ground down the toe rail resulting in a 20’ section opened up with 3” gap. The aft ER bulkhead on port side was pushed in about 2”. The unsupported hull side was flapping yet there were no stress cracks on the hell. We rebuilt the cap rail, realigned and re tabbed the bulkhead…. Only boat at my marina docked on or inside a tee head to survive the storm… two piers down a beautiful canoe stern Choy Lee 60 something had its upper deck/roof flybridge ripped out and deposited on the dock.

    yes weight affects performance and fuel burn but it also makes for a much better ride in head seas along with a sharp narrow entry. No free lunch: it s always a trade off.
    bayoubud likes this.
  9. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    You seem to imply (as some old comments in this thread did) that heavy=good, but that's a very misleading concept.
    Yes, it is true that old Hatts were not only heavily built, but also very solid overall, in terms of general construction.
    But aside from the fact that I've seen Hatt hulls of the 70s and the 80s with an appalling amount of osmosis, it's the principle that heavier construction per se is always good that is, to put it simply, wrong.
    Leaving aside pure displacement hulls, where weight can contribute (up to a point) to improve stability and overall comfort, with any boats designed to cruise also at planing speed, you want them to be as LIGHT as possible, not the other way round!

    Of course, the crux of the matter is to make the hull (and the boat in general) lighter while not sacrificing strength, which is a fine balance.
    But for builders like Otam, Pershing, AB, etc., it would be MUCH easier, and surely LESS expensive, to build their boats like Hatt used to, compared to using infusion, carbon fiber, and so forth.
    Trouble is, that would affect their performances badly.
    So, in a sense, with all due respect for Hatteras, it's fair to say that many of their boats were the result of somewhat lazy engineering.
    In fact, it's no coincidence that many so-called "Taiwanese tubs" are also built with a tank-like lamination process, regardless of how bad they can be in many other departments.
    Problem is, boats are not meant to be tanks, and even less so for pleasure boats, none of which are designed to withstand "Deadliest Catch" conditions!
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I think Hatteras was once the best in so many ways and part of that was the solid, heavy build. However, as methods and processes improved, they failed to change as they perhaps should have. They were proud of their heritage to excess. Viking modernized their build process. Now, unlike some heavy brands, Hatteras did use the weight well and did maintain performance. Still lighter custom SF's and other builders took some share.

    On MY's, they built such solid boats but more than their failure to change construction was their failure to change styling. The heavy construction also hurt them in cost and pricing. We looked long and hard at Hatteras MY's. We rejected them for lack of lower helms. However, setting that aside, I'll do a brief comparison of 60'-80' vs. Sunseeker. The overall quality of build on the Hatteras is better. However, the Sunseekers address the needs and desires of the average user better. As to ride and performance where Hatteras once held the advantage, the Sunseekers in that range ride and perform very well and equal to the Hatteras MY's of the last few years in most regards and that's a shame for Hatteras. Again, the quality of their workmanship is superior but it doesn't result in a superior boat for the average user.

    However, you don't have to go to Europe to see how Hatteras locked themselves in. Look at all the Vikings, custom SF's, Jarrett Bay and others along the East Coast. This is a market Hatteras once owned. Go to the docks of the charter fishermen in NC. I pulled up Hatteras Harbor, 13 SF's for charter. None are Hatteras. I haven't found any Hatteras for charter in Hatteras, NC. I'm sure there are some, but most boats there are from small custom builders.

    I have no idea where Johnny Morris will lead Hatteras as I think the primary reason for the purchase was production capacity. I don't believe they'll ever produce another MY and, if they don't soon, it won't matter. I do think the intent is to do something with the SF's but no one knows what. I think the main thing is streamlining the build process so they can produce volume at decent costs.

    Never has the need for minimizing weight been so apparent as in our AB. However, having grown up in Hatteras country, I was shocked at the quality of ride at all speeds. Riva is a bit on the heavier side, compared to boats like AB and even their sister, Pershing, but I'd put our 63' Riva ahead in ride to a Hatteras 60 with the main advantages being a lower planing speed and better handling of waves from aft.

    Hatteras engineers have had many ideas but been forced to hold them back. You had years of Brunswick not investing while they looked for a buyer. You then had Versa, not in the long term, but buying with plans to flip it, and then the last couple of years of ownership limited by their other businesses. No one has invested in Hatteras's future for well over a decade. If you want to really grasp the sadness, just think....no MY's, no Cabo. Only 4 SF's remaining. Let me correct, a 59', 65' and 70' and now the 45' not offered in a fishing setup anymore, just as a basic cruiser.

    I would love to see or hear of a plan, but no transparency with the new owners and the current plan is simple, build all the Mako and Rangers you can.
  11. gcsi

    gcsi Member

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    There’s more to Hatteras than weight. I’ll use my boat (2002 75’ MY) as an example of the “Hatteras experience”.

    All boats break. If they’re not broken now, they are in the process of breaking… it’s a never ending cycle of repairs and upgrades. Hatteras truly shines when it comes to product support. Sam’s has always been able to deliver consumables (wipers, door hardware, hatch screens, lights, switches, pumps, etc.) on an overnight basis. This is my third Hatt and Sam’s has been able to fulfill even the most obscure requests, truly an amazing resource. If Sam’s is unable to assist directly, they know where to point you for help.

    Recently, I was having an intermittent fire alarm from the generator room. Spent a day troubleshooting with no joy.

    Reached out to Sam’s who then referred me to Hatteras technical support. Hatteras technical support called in original engineer who designed alarm system, he then spent better part of an hour explaining system. Hatteras then forwarded three pages of wiring plans related to the alarm system that were hull specific. All the wires are labeled and relate exactly to the plans. Hatteras provided all of this and refused to accept payment.

    Over the course of two days, with the help of Hatteras, I went from scratching my head to a thorough understanding of the system with the hull specific technical drawings in hand that will enable me to diagnose most conceivable faults.

    One week later I was onto another project (replacing HVAC raw water lines). The lines were tough to access and I was worried about a “can of worms”. Another call to Hatteras tech support who then pulls photos from original build in order to explain exactly where the hoses were and how they were secured.

    Admittedly I’m biased, but I still think Hatteras is a class apart. The Hatt may be heavy and a bit slower that newer builds, but, it’s built to a very high technical standard and the support is second to none.

    Relative to all the gossip, I can state with certainty that as of last week Hatteras tech support answered within a few rings and provided a prompt, exceptional level of service.
    Capt Ralph, bayoubud and captholli like this.
  12. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Historically, no one has provided better service than Hatteras. I'd also state that in 2002, when your MY was built, no finer boat built. However, Hatteras today is merely a shell of what it was in 2002 and, unfortunately, none of us have any idea about the Hatteras of the future. To say they are no longer building MY's isn't gossip. To say they're not building Cabo's isn't gossip. To say the SF line is three boats isn't gossip. To say that the majority of the manufacturing facility is now devoted to Mako and Ranger isn't gossip. Now talking future is all speculation.

    What you're saying is what makes it so sad. The heritage of Hatteras is unmatched. Hatteras was unparalleled in their excellence. Some timeline to follow:

    2001-Brunswick buys Hatteras
    2006-Brunswick buys Cabo
    2010-Cabo production moved to New Bern
    2013-Cabo discontinued
    2013-Hatteras purchased by Versa Capital after a long effort to sell by Brunswick
    2019-One Cabo model reintroduced, becomes the Hatteras 45.
    2021-Hatteras/Cabo purchased by White River Marine Group (Bass Pro).
    2021-Hatteras MY's discontinued
    2021-Hatteras SF line reduced to 3 boats plus 1 cruising boat, the 45'
    2021-Production expanded with majority of production devoted to Mako and Ranger Saltwater
    2022-No announcements as to plans or future of Hatteras made by WRMG. No new Hatteras models introduced.

    Your boat represents a boat built in the days when Brunswick first acquired Hatteras. Things continued largely the same until the recession hit and Hatteras had huge cutbacks. It was during that time that rumors of Hatteras being for sale first hit but clearly no buyers. An official announcement of plans to sell didn't hit until January 2013 and the sale took place later in the year. Brunswick made no significant investments or improvements in Hatteras between 2008 and 2013. Versa bought, as an equity capital firm. The plan was always to resell at some point, but they found that much harder than hoped for. There were many negotiations during 2020 and 2021 that fell apart. The value of Hatteras as an ongoing enterprise was not what they thought. Finally, WRMG stepped in with their need for manufacturing capability for their existing lines.

    Brunswick struggled to sell Hatteras as did Versa. Look at Brunswick's unsuccessful attempts to sell Searay. The legacy of Hatteras is very special, but it's been slowly tarnished over the last 13 years or so. For a similar situation, look at what happened to Bertram.

    I would say that so far the quality of Hatteras has remained and been protected. The three SF models are very good boats. They still ride better than the competition and fish very well. However, Hatteras's volume is down to that of custom SF builders. Go to their website today. Find one section anywhere on it talking about new models or the future. You can't. Find one mention of the acquisition. You can't. The website and the brand are ignored by WRMG. Perhaps they have great plans, but they sure are not sharing them with anyone. Oh, there have been new designs played with for a while, but all on hold. While Mako and Ranger Saltwater are booming, Hatteras is stagnating. The past two years have been good for SF's, but not many of those have been Hatteras and it hasn't accelerated with the sale.

    I want to cheer the return of Hatteras to it's glory. I'd love to own a new, updated model. I'd love to see some news. Yes, your 2002 was in their glory years, and, to their credit, the support is still there. I don't think there was a better boat built in 2002 than Hatteras. However, the brand's lifeblood has gradually diminished and continues to do so today.

    Do you see any press releases? I suggest Carl contact them and ask for a nice comprehensive release on their plans. Maybe he'll have more luck than others have had.
  13. ychtcptn

    ychtcptn Senior Member

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    I spent a considerable time at Hatteras in the mid 90's when it was owned by Genmar. At the time I was a mate on an 82' for a family that had invested in Genmar. We built several boats over a period of 3 years, one being a 90' Convertible.
    Our goal building the 90' was to help Hatteras move into the modern world when it came to boat building. The owner brought in an outside layup- Structural company that had built his racing sailboat, which was very cutting edge at the time and won all it's races. After a complete analysis of their layup and building process, we were given 3 options, from super hi tech to just the minimum to lighten the boat up.
    The basically told us they couldn't do any of it, just was not worth it and would mess up their build process. Luckily the boss said pick one of the 3, doing nothing is not an option. This is how it went with all the modern upgrades that we wanted to make to the boat, it was a battle every day to bring them into the future.
    At the end of the day, the boat came out lighter and faster (same engines) than the 82', even though it had a flybridge.
    A couple of years later at a boat show, I looked at one of their SF, and it had an upgrade engine roome package, which was everything we made them do on the 90'.
    After spending so much time in New Bern, it is sad to see what has happened to the company, I was there when they were building the 130's and 112's. For a 20 something year old, it was fun times!
    Donald Jones and Westielover like this.
  14. TeKeela

    TeKeela Member

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    you offered to pay?


    I just watched a documentary on the Amercia's Cup when Australia showed up with their winged keel. This was in '83, very interesting, anywho, in some of the footage you would see Hatterascal loaded with people for the party. Interesting to see her all gussied up.

    My time dealing with Hatteras, there was never a sales person, engineer, designer or anyone who went boating and no fishing by them. They liked their desks and did not listen to input. I dealt with many new customers and tried to give them feedback, they had no interest in new ideas. On a Saturday I watched the Pres at the time spend 10 minutes trying to get Knit Wit in the covered slip. They were not boaters. If you don't love your product....

    By contrast, my time dealing with Viking, they would make a change mid-year, design, engineers, sales people all fished, they used their products and listened to their customers. No change was too small to improve the product.
    SWF likes this.
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Great timing for this thread revival as we just spent a couple of days anchored out on the bay on our 1970 53 MY meeting friends of ours who have a 2014 80 MY. One of the early classic Hatteras MY and one of the last modern Hatteras MY just a couple hundred feet apart … bittersweet

    the 80 is fantastic boat. Superb engine room and systems. Amazing built quality. Pretty good looking as well. Talking to our friend and his captain, I realized that the weight of the boat and resulting fuel burn probably didn’t help Hatteras survive. 110 to 120 GPH at 20 kts is pretty massive for an 80 footer

    it’s 50% more than the 80 Lazzara I was running before (80 gph at 20kts) and about the same as the 110 lazzara I m running now

    yes we pay a price for the lightness of the Lazzaras when the going get rough but I m not sure the massive fuel burn is worth the inproved sea keeping.

    I can’t help wondering if this has not been part of reasons for Hatteras poor sales in the last 10/20 years.
  16. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    I don't buy into your statement that Hatteras employees weren't boaters or seafarers.
    In 1994 Hatteras's director of engineering Walter Richardson joined me in Seattle on the 114" Hatteras "Victory Lane" and rode with us 8 days to
    San Diego with a stop in San Fransisco to sort out an engineering integration fault with the many multiple station Sturdy controls that were on the first Hatteras 114. We stopped in San Fran and picked up the head of the laminating Dept. to look at and ascertain a structural, laminating schedule update for a crack that formed in the fwd. cabin trunk brow and he rode with us down to San Diego along with Walt who by the way was a licensed 100-ton Capt. that loved to boat with his family and get out on the NC sounds and rivers as much as possible. This 114 was my first and only Hatteras that I ever ran in my career as a Capt., and I was aboard for a little over a year before she was sold but I came away incredibly impressed with the boat as a whole along with the company's unwavering support for its product.
    Liam likes this.