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Why do US manufacturers use "home made" cables?

Discussion in 'Electronics' started by pbekker, Nov 18, 2009.

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  1. pbekker

    pbekker New Member

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    hello all

    i was wondering why they use in the usa
    "home made" cables for small boats istead of officale cables like from draka cable´s

    i´m from holland and i´m used to work with "normal" cable (work for tijssen elektro at heesen yards, moonen shipyard, vitter,trintala)
    now i´m working on a shipyard in brasil that make productions boats
    that they also export to europa and the usa

    here we are working with the amarican way of making cables
    loose wires in a open cut flex pipe

    we also are caringing the certification of "ABYC" and the europian "CE" (this one is just for savety and not for technical part)


    so my question is why do they use this type of cable´s ??
    is it a kind of " laziness" or stobbornness to do it this way

    because my opinion is that this way looks cheap and not handy .

    so i love to hear others option too why it is like this

    best to all,

    pascal
  2. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    More than one US mfg'er have electrical engineers who design to and above the ABYC requirements & standards, and while the wire & cable looms are done in-house (not in someone's back yard as your "home made" would seem to suggest), as well as panels, terminal blocks, etc., it would seem to be a nightmare to sub out such an important aspect of construction...especially in "production" boats that offer options & custom additions which changes the whole equation.
    While not the 'cable-in-conduit' that Draka offers, these electrical systems exist and still work safely in boats that were built over thirty years ago, something that cannot be said for some European builds.

    "Lazy"? "Stubborn"?

    Pragmatic, yes, but certainly not arrogant.
  3. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    This might be the first time I've ever heard of a more labor-intensive process of custom fitting being called "lazy." Seems to me buying off-the-shelf, or even semi-custom/standardized items and having to make them fit is the lazy way.

    But perhaps you'd care to enlighten us on what "normal" cable is?
  4. pbekker

    pbekker New Member

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    hello

    first off all
    i dont want to make people angry here because of this topic
    and it for small boat up 31feet ( the real big ones like burger boat are not using this way unther ABS i believe)

    but with lazy i mean more in the way of lazy to not change the work of working (like we work already 20 years like this and we keep on going for the next 20 years)

    yes i know it is more work on this way
    thas is why i made this topic to try to untherstand why they use this in the usa ( or countries that copy this )

    because they prefore to cut 3 a 4 wires with a flex pipe, pull the wires in it, instead of cutting off 1 cable on lengt

    and what i mean with "normal" cable is
    like draka MOG, nexxan ect

    http://www.drakamog.com/
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    One reason may be because it allows "point to point" wiring which eliminates junction boxes and connections which, in a small boat" are prone to problems caused by loose connections and corrosion.

    It is also less expensive, lighter, and allows for much easier troubleshooting and tracing. Point to point wiring allows for simpler installation of accessories and various options at the builder and after delivery.
  6. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Has anyone ever seen a boat without bunches of terminal blocks and ground busses, i.e., one with an entire electrical wiring system comprised of Draka's Cable-in-conduit solution?
  7. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Maybe I should have written "reduces" rather than "eliminates" junction boxes. It may reduce the number of JBs and TBs by eliminating some of them through point to point wiring.
  8. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    One of the things I add to a new build spec is a drawing ( small boats)or drawings ( big boats) showing the location and number/name/detail of every junction box behind deckheads/linings etc.
  9. pbekker

    pbekker New Member

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    this is very handy and have to be standard in the building spec
    but this is not where the topic is about
  10. Seafarer

    Seafarer Senior Member

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    When wiring systems go bad, is it easier or more difficult to chase a single set of (color or letter coded, hopefully) cables to replace that component's electrical, signal, or control supply feeds, or to replace the entire area's bundled single "system" of cabling?

    Which is more cost effective, in materials and labor cost?

    Or, if a set of wires inside a Draka cable system goes bad, does one just piggyback cables from point to point outside the "system?"

    If one were to replace a piece of electronic equipment that had, say, 4 leads to it in the "system" with a new item that had 6 or 8 leads, would one have to then gut out the entire system to replace it wholesale?

    Is a wiring 'system' actually more practical long-term, except from an aesthetic point of view, than properly run dedicated wiring?

    How does one go about testing individual wires deep within the "system" bundle? Would a builder have to include redundant "systems" thereby adding cost, weight, and complexity?
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,


    The long and the short of it is this as far as I understand:


    You claim to be a Marine Electrician, deal with what you have and don't complain or if it is too onerous for you find another job.
  12. pbekker

    pbekker New Member

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    @kiwi

    yes i´m a marine electrician for about 10years already
    mainly i work in holland

    i appreciate your comment and it is a good thing of having this drawings, but the information in your comment
    is not in relationship with the main subject of this topíc.

    and i see to many time here on this forum that the more comments are given, the more members are going to give comments there are offtopic ( a total different subject) because some of them give a new comment on a other ones comment where the information of this persons comment is not in relationship of the threat.

    and i like to keep the comments in relation with the subject of the threat.

    (by the way i´m not complaining i just like to untherstand the way of thinking in the usa in europa we know this type only in cars )

    @all

    and to get back on the subject why is this way not used unther ABS, loydt,
    DMV, rina

    and why are there special made marine approved "cable-in-conduit" by draka or nexans and all the other cable manufators
  13. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Unless your question was a joke from the beginning, as a marine electrician with a decade of experience in commercial yards you should understand the difference between classed vessels and those built to a voluntary standard such as ABYC.

    The class standards for fire resistance, smoke and fume production, and other factors don't apply to small unclassed recreational vessels and that is the bottom line really.

    The practical argument is that IEEE or better class approved shielded and fire resistant cables are simply not necessary to provide safety on small recreational vessels. Even Airbus and Boeing use point to point single wires bundled in looms or harnesses to supply power and control on their civil and military aircraft ... if it's good enough for Boeing it should be good enough for Bertram.
  14. CharlieJ

    CharlieJ New Member

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    pbekker-
    Not totally on topic, but I looked at the Draka website you posted and found the following specs for 4 conductor AWG 10 (FLSXTPO-10) wire has 7 strands. It seems like you would need a conduit bender to bend this!!
    The wiring cited by the ABYC is either Type 2 with 19 strands or, preferably, Type 3 with 105 strands.
    Why would you prefer Draka cable in a pleasure boat? Does the ABS or CE or other certifying agencies require it?
    Charlie
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I manage a yacht with this Draka type system, and it's horrible...... there is one bend in the wiring that goes from the engine room to the dashboard and breaker panel.....and so far (all at different times) have run 8 new wires because of breaks in them........
  16. pbekker

    pbekker New Member

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    hello all

    @capj

    i did not realy unjtherstand your post
    are you saying that the cables are straight and make no corners at all
    and what kind of break do they have ??

    @charliej

    well if yu use the draka cable
    your not putting in a 19 or 105 wired cable in to supply all your users
    no you will put in a cable per system/user so then you dont have those very thick cables you will put in a 3x2,5mm² (sorry i´m not realy home in the awg standars) or max 5x2,5mm² for normal users like a charger boiler ect
    for the batt you use generaly a batt cable and yes those a single models

    (yes unther ABS loyds DNV mca it is a norm )

    @all/general

    if you look at the home page of this site you see a review of the "man of steel" made by heesen yachts in holland
    my old boss where i work (and learn yacht building) made the electric installion on this yacht and if you look at the fotos of the engine room there you can see what i mean with cables and i looks way mutch better/cleaner then the open cut pipe with wires in it ( yes i know this is a totaly different world of boats) like on tyhe fotos (if they are good to see)


    ones agian i did not made this topic to get people angry because of ther way of working
    but (marmot it was no joke this topic)
    i was only wondering why you see this more or less only in the usa
    and not every where in the (small) boating world

    (even in holland they use cables in the very small boats we make over here)

    Attached Files:

  17. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    Wiring - Euro v. N America

    This is most likely due to evolution of standards.

    In Buildings in US most of the wiring is hidden due to hollow wall construction, or in conduit for industrial applications. This is not true in Europe as many older structures are solid wall resulting in a requirement to develop "Clean" looking Surface mount wiring. Some of the commercial marine and offshore work I have seen is very industrial so is this discussion about Yacht Standards?

    -- You may ask why this is relevant in Marine Craft but remember -- Specifications are Eternal...

    As with many things there are Pros and Cons to both systems. N American system is easier to maintain - Euro system looks nicer in exposed areas....

    Some say Tomato, some Tomotto.....
  18. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    Specifications are Eternal

    The US Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet 8.5 inches – that’s an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used? Because that’s the way they built them in England and the US railroads were built by English expatriates. Why did the English people build them like that? Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that’s the gauge they used.


    Why did “they” use that gauge then? Because the people who built the tramways used the same jigs and tools that they used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing. Okay! Why did the wagons use that odd wheel spacing? Well, if they tried to use any other spacing the wagons would break on some of the old, long distance roads, because that’s the spacing of the old wheel ruts.

    Who built those old rutted roads? The first long distance roads in Europe were built by Imperial Rome for the benefit of their regions. The roads have been used ever since. And the ruts? The initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagons, were first made by Roman war chariots. Since the chariots were made for or by Imperial Rome they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

    Thus, we have the answer to the original question. The United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet 8.5 inches derives from the original specification for an Imperial Roman army war chariot. Specs and bureaucracies live forever. The next time you are handed a specification and wonder what horse’s ass came up with it, you may be exactly right, because the Imperial Roman chariots were made to be just wide enough to accommodate the back-ends of two war horses.


    – Found on the Internet, Source Unknown
  19. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    One comment.....Lucas electric.....lol.....
  20. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    No Doubt :D