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Why did the Bounty sink?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Don Novello, Nov 3, 2012.

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  1. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    Death does not shelter improper choices.

    However, a shoestring budget requires compromises.

    Compromises can lead to catastrophic tragedy.

    Fault begins with the owner.

    Any burden belongs to the owner.
  2. ArcanisX

    ArcanisX Senior Member

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    NYCAP, I think we just got here a wise reason why so many important and responsible positions are manned by dang amateurs :rolleyes:
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I'm paid for my educated opinion.


    Sometimes it's don't do it. I need a lawsuit and damaged reputation a lot less than I need a job.
    Old Phart, you're right. The fault, or at least the responsibility, always goes to the deep pockets. Lawyers don't sue the poor or the dead.
  4. ArcanisX

    ArcanisX Senior Member

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    That makes two of us.
    What I've been saying is when someone is positively set on ordering a half-assed job and not an inch more, he will get it. Maybe not from you or any other self-respecting professional, but still. So it's not even a matter of "whom to sue", it's a matter of who pays and therefore calls shots.

    Just a week ago I had this classic conversation with prospective client: "I want you to make me 2x2=5" - "Listen, that's not exactly the quality I think you'd like." - "Maybe, but I just want 2x2=5, you're a pro, make me so." - "Ok, see, this is two matches. I double it, so I take this two more matches. Here, count, 4 matches, no more, no less." - "This is just too much of all that goobbledook specifics and particular trees. You don't seem to see the forest. You've been recommended as a professional but now I see you can't accomodate my needs..."
    Now I'm willing to bet my '13's whole income this guy is going to hire someone who promises to make him 2x2=5. It won't be me, and it's impossible to tell what exact kinds of hilarity ensues, but there's a demand - there'll be a supply. And quite honestly, I won't even blame that someone too much.
  5. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    Math lesson.

    2 x 2 = 8

    1 match

    light it = burns once.

    Touch boss while match still hot = burns twice.

    Twice x 2 matches = 4 burns x 2 = 8 burns experienced by boss.

    End of lesson.
  6. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Who was the owner? The HMS Bounty Preservation Society? And that was who? The Captain and his wife and whatever investors could be swindled into thinking they could help?
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    The fault lies with everyone involved. Yes, it starts with the owner. You're responsible for providing safe working conditions for your employees and the fact it's non-profit doesn't change that, nor does whether they're paid or not.

    The Captain obviously is at fault and made so many serious errors in judgement that it becomes almost like a death wish. He had previously expressed thoughts of going down with the ship one day.

    And to the professional crew members, there is a time to step up and stop the risk of other's lives. The following blindly concept can't always be held. Then the "Engineer" who clearly took a job he wasn't capable of, putting others in danger.
  8. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I agree to a point. But were any of the "crew" paid? It sounds like they had titles, but they didnt seem to mean much. When you hire people with no experience or even decent training, do they know enough to be responsible? The "engineer" who claimed to be proficient with Diesel engines and hydraulic systems proved to be neither, so I consider him to be partially at fault. I do find it hard to fault the amateurs that didnt know better. They took the word of "experts" and thought it was good. It really looks like the captain built himself an improperly trained crew that wouldn't understand the danger he was putting them in. Come on, they all thought 2 feet of water in 4 hours was normal for wooden boats. In a boat that size, that's several thousand gallons.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Note I qualified it as "The professional crew members". And, yes, some were paid. As to the volunteers without professional credentials, they really had no way to know better as they made the critical mistake of putting their trust in the captain and the boat. I'm sure their thought was, "This man knows what he's doing and if it was dangerous, he would never do this."
  10. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Ok, I see what you mean. Even then, it looks like the few longer term members had no nautical experience aside from their time on the Bounty. If their on the job training was faulty, did they know enough to be considered professional? The first mate didn't seem much more competent than the other crew members. Although he did seem to have experience fixing things.

    Since the normal crew seemed to include about 10 more people, I wonder if those people were smart enough to know something was wrong. Makes me wonder if they tried to warn the newbies?
  11. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    Some members need to read the reports before posting.


    http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2014/MAB1403.pdf


    Owner/operator HMS Bounty Organization, LLC

    ******** Maritime & Offshore News | Hansen and HMS Bounty Organization Sued for $90 Million
  12. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I've read all that, I just missed or forgot the project manager and didnt catch the owner. The project manager claims the captain informed him of the rot and it's extent, but was he given the whole story? The failure to testify makes me think yes, but was he a finance guy or a ship guy? The owner looks more like an investor who left the ship in the captain's hands? Did he have any nautical background? I understand that they skirted the rules and didn't have to have an engineer or any trained crew on the ship. Doesn't change the fact that they did list people in those positions without the training to have the title.

    Please don't mis-understand me and think I'm trying to stir up the feces, I'm just curious of other people's thoughts on the situation. And I do appreciate pointing out anything I missed. I'm on a phone, and sometimes I miss things on some of the websites. My old iPhone 4 is getting on in its life and maybe a little senile. Sometimes it forgets it was online and goes to the home screen.
  13. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I stand corrected, I guess I did miss your last link. I see that some of the crew had been aboard tall ships before. Somewhere on another link I thought I had read that only the captain had been on tall ships before. I'm reading further on this now.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Let's see.

    1. The ship was a rotton POS that needed a lot of hull maintanence
    2. The fuel tanks had a lot of algae in them.
    3. The engineer was not 1
    4. The gas powered crash pump was not tested and wouldn't stay running
    5. The bilge pumps needed AC power and the generators wouldn't stay running because of dirty fuel filters
    6. They didn't have enough spare fuel filters.
    7. They should've never been out there in that weather
    8. The engines were down on power because of dirty fuel filters
    9. E.R. flooded and generators wouldn't run at all
    10. They didn't do 1 single thing right, or so it seems......starting with the Captain and his decision making process......or lack there of
  15. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I got all that. There was also something said about the fuel filters being the wrong ones as well. Also the water pumps were clogging with sawdust from the rotting to pieces ship. Was it algae in the tanks? Or was it more water separation issues? I guess a real engineer would have known, but some amateur that was taught "if this happens, do this" wouldn't.
  16. dsharp

    dsharp Senior Member

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    Anyone that has spent time running a boat for a living knows that bad weather brings out the worst in a boat. It's one thing for a refrigerator to break loose or portholes to leak like mad but if you have things in the engine room shifting and breaking loose then you are pretty well doomed. That boat should have never left the dock.
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I wouldn't want to go out in a Hurricane in a Navy Destroyer.....let alone a rotted wooden tall ship.....based on a centuries old design......
  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    AKA: Monkey see Monkey do seems to work well 99% of the time it is just that 1 in 100 chance that this way of doing things will come round and bite you big style.

    Vessels have been lost with fully qualified and experienced individuals on them as well, poor decision making can easily negate the benefit of qualifications.
  19. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Substitute "certification" for qualification. The YOGI was manned by highly "certificated" but apparently completely unqualified senior officers.

    That appears to be a not uncommon condition on many of the larger yachts lately.
  20. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    The YOGI did spring to mind but as the folks holding the key positions had dubious right to hold their bits of paper I thought the Torrey Canyon would be a better example where a silly decision on the part of the Ship Master caused the disaster and the Amoco Cadiz where the reluctance to take outside assistance contributed to the grounding.

    The qualifications of none of the Officers on those two vessels were questioned, it was poor and or the inability to make a decision that led to the ultimate end result.

    A combined total of just over 100 Million gallons of oil being dumped in the sea.

    As for yachting , I tend to agree with your sentiment. In some ways I am sad I am nearing the end of my career but in others not so much because like you I see and hear things that makes my skin crawl on a regular basis.
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