Click for Llebroc Click for Abeking Click for JetForums Click for Alexseal Click for Cheoy Lee

Why are AB Yachts so cheap on the used boat market ?

Discussion in 'AB Yachts' started by AGav, Aug 15, 2015.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,164
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    "Humans in general not very smart?" Speak for yourself.

    Why can't you offer opinions of the various boats without insulting those who choose otherwise? I was enjoying your comments up until the time you felt those who chose for reasons different than yours were stupid. Your opinions are very good until you disparage those who disagree.

    People buy boats for many reasons and they don't always buy for their performance in rough seas as the vast majority of pleasure boaters never go into rough seas. Many buy for creature comforts and space. Every boat is a compromise on many factors.

    As to quality and rough sea performance, we own two Riva's and are extremely impressed with every aspect of their quality and their handling of seas. We did test a Pershing at the time we purchased the Riva's. We found a compromise of ride for speed that didn't appeal to us. That's design and the nature of the boat. It was faster than the Riva, but it did pound some under rough conditions when a similarly sized Riva did not. We have a Rivarama and a Vertigo (which I still vote as the worst name ever for a boat model thinking they were unaware of it's meaning in English).

    We also own a Sunseeker Manhattan 65. We purchased it primarily to do the loop and it's an excellent boat for that purpose. We've had no significant quality issues so far. We have also had it in fairly rough seas along the coast and in the Great Lakes and been pleased with how it handled conditions. We wouldn't rate it's ride in those conditions as good as we would the Riva's but then our Riva in the same length is a coupe and doesn't have nearly the space the Manhattan has. Space was a critical reason we purchased the Manhattan. Riva makes nothing to compare to it in that size, with a flybridge. Still I more than trust it to handle any seas it will ever see. Not like we're going to cross the Atlantic in it.

    Azimut is designed as a lower cost line. With that comes compromise. However, the major issues with them in the US are wiring, parts and the single source service network which leaves one at the mercy of Marine Max with no other party to turn to if not being serviced to your satisfaction. I know some people in Europe feel better toward Azimut and Benetti.

    We are chartering an AB in Europe for a week sometime in late March or April as I am anxious to form an opinion of my own regarding them. We're interested in them simply for the speed they offer and, unlike many, I do like jet propulsion. Still I've never used it on a boat in the 80-110' size range and look forward to doing so.

    However, the fact a boat isn't a great rough water boat doesn't necessarily make it a bad boat. You mention Beneteau. I know at least 8 or 10 owners of Beneteau Swift Trawlers and they are all very happy with their boats. The only criticisms I've heard have been it's through hulls. It's not a great rough water boat but handles moderately rough seas safely. It is a coastal cruiser, a Loop boat, a nice bay boat and a good boat for the PNW. It's a moderately priced boat that fills a niche which has been largely deserted by other manufacturers. It's not my choice of boat, but again, I respect all those I know who do own them. They get the compromise they seek between ride and usable space, between speed and economy. They're the crowd not happy with trawler speeds but not needing to run 30 knots either, not intending to cross oceans but needing to be able to handle seas that come up quickly along the coast.

    See, I don't feel people or boat buyers are stupid. I look at the largest "yacht" builders in the world, Sunseeker, Azimut/Benetti, Sanlorenzo, and Ferretti. I don't see their sales as a matter of stupidity but a compromise of price and comfort vs. performance and ability to handle rough ocean seas in some cases. They meet price points and do what the average boater needs out of them. I don't consider the purchaser who chooses a boat different than the one I would to be stupid, but simply choosing one that matches their needs better, and one of those needs with most is affordability. In the US, Sea Ray has more happy boaters than any of the brands we'll ever discuss here. They meet the needs of the mass market extremely well.
  2. muscled430

    muscled430 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Italy
    Well, i did not want to offend anyone........Riva is a piece of art, but the quality is medium-low and the price super high. Pershing, made by the same Group, has the same problems.
    The Vertigo is based on a Ferretti hull (hope you knew that).
    AB, no idea, I know that the hull is good, the rest I cannot judge.
    About speed and economy : please remember that consumption goes not with gallons per hour but with miles per gallons. Before saying that a Magnum burns more then a displacement yacht, make some calculations dividing gallons per speed.........
    You might have been lucky with your Riva, but there are tons of people facing problems with them.
    Most of the people use the boat like a beach villa, they go out from ports only when sea is totally flat and they cruise only few miles away from ports. Well also a hull made as a pontoon is good for that, but I am sorry, this is not boating, is something else. In Cina people buy boats without engines (crazy but true), and they keep the boats in the ports only to welcome friends and play karaoke....again it is something that has the shape of a boat but not made for boating.
    Weather forecasts are much better than in the past, but it can happen that they make a mistake and you end with your boat in rough sea. No one is willing to go cruising with 10 feet waves (or at least I hope so), but if you find yourself in such conditions, if you have a boat designed to be a boat and high quality built, you will end the day safe in the port just a bit sea sick, otherwise if you are lucky you will end your day in the port with a huge **** in your pants, if not lucky you will be rescued or worst.....
    Beneteau, Bavaria, Azimut and many others are boats which fall apart after few years (someone sooner, someone later), but at least you pay more or less what you get. Ferretti, Riva, Pershing have the same problems, but they cost a way more (and Riva is the better made, at least the one still made in Sarnico, so the small and the medium small are still made decently).
    I do not buy a boat because has tons of space or a good looking kitchen, I buy a boat because can cruise well in almost every circumstance. This is the main point, then if the boat has also a cool design, I am even more happy.
    In USA you have fantastic yards that still makes good boats : Viking, Boston, Intrepid, Hinckley to mention few. Magnum used to build great boats, no idea now. Their weak point against the european production could be the design (interior or exterior).
    In Italy the only yard that still makes well build small-medium boats is Cantieri di Sarnico/Colombo and due to the economy problems we had in the past and due to the lack of dealers around the world now the yard is building only a couple of boats per year.
    All the other yards either were bought just before bankrupcy (Ferretti Group by a Chinese Group), or after bankrupcy (Canados, Baglietto, Tornado, Dalla Pietà, Italcraft.........and many others)
    Baia went bankrupcy and closed, Fiart has heavy economic problems but surviving.....as you can see not much is left.
    So if you want my opinion : buy boats made in USA by renowned yards. The design might not be as hot as the italian design, but the quality is not even comparable.
  3. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,164
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Well, I strongly disagree with your comments on Riva and I've talked to many Riva owners who would as well. It's obvious your prejudice is toward small yards in Italy and that's fine. Well, actually one yard and inquiring minds do need to ask what your relationship with that yard is. You do use the pronoun "we" in discussing that yard. Regardless, a one or two boat a year yard is hardly worth bringing into this discussion. I don't know their quality because I've likely never seen and never will see anything they build.

    However, I think Riva's quality is consistently the best within the Ferretti group. As to the Vertigo, it and the Virtus are the same hull and both extremely well performing while comfortable rides. They are both made in Sarnico as are all the small Riva's. The larger Riva's are built in La Spezia. As to your comment about Vertigo being based on a Ferretti hull, that's preposterous hyperbole, now known as "alternate facts," if by based on you mean it's the same as or anything beyond saying we need a similarly sized boat. Regardless, the Vertigo/Virtus hull has held up and proven itself now over 10 years.

    I've never felt unsafe in either Riva and I've been in fairly rough seas in both. Moderately rough in the smaller one and quite rough in the larger. More in each than the average owner is going to go out in.

    Talking about boats falling apart after a few years is again exaggeration even of boats like Azimut. If you mean things on them breaking like wiring issues or heads needing to be replaced, I agree, but if you mean structurally falling apart, as negative as I am on Azimut, I don't see that happening. Actually the last boat I saw with significant issues in that regard was Bertram.

    There are US yards building good boats. We own three US built boats. Viking, Hatteras, and Westport have definitely proven themselves over time. The US is the home of the Sportfishing boat industry. Builders like Hinckley have been successful in niche markets. We have high performance in builders like Fountain and Cigarette. However, the US doesn't have any performance production yachts at this time. No production boats in moderate sizes with 35 knot or above cruising ability.

    There are a lot of volume builders who have a good strong history. When you start tearing down all Sunseekers, Sanlorenzo, Azimut Benetti, Ferretti, Sea Ray, etc. boats as poor quality you're attacking the great majority of the market of boats. When you call they buyers stupid and you state humans are in general not very smart, you're showing an elitist and superiority attitude and condescension. Saying there is only one well built boat in Italy building only one or two boats a year just shows no credibility.

    Now, are you ready to reveal your relationship with Cantieri di Sarnico/Colombo. I revealed my connection to Riva as owning two. None of which has anything to do with the subject of AB Yachts. In attacking all other Italian builders I'm shocked you didn't attack them. Liam did provide some insight and opinion I found most helpful.
  4. rocdiver

    rocdiver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2006
    Messages:
    189
    Location:
    Ft Lauderdale, Florida

    I, as are many others, am glad you're here OB. Kudos to you for having the time for such informed replies, and the experience with said boats to back them up. Few here, or anywhere else for that matter, personally own the range of boats you do, and have clearly done the research for owning said boats.

    I know when I see your name attached to a thread I always go to it first to see your posts. (To be fair, there are a few ((very few)) other members for which I share the same regard, but I'll address those separately).

    Further, you have a knack for calling out those whom have ulterior motives in their posts. No doubt due to you having dealt with somewhat unscrupulous characters in the past.

    Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

    Best,
    ROCK
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,164
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Thank you, Rock. Just trying to be fair with the information as the site rates high in search engines and people could be led in to just one opinion on subjects, sometimes an opinion unfair to some manufacturers. I try to admit my bias, as in this case as an owner of Riva's.
  6. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2012
    Messages:
    49
    Location:
    Italy
    Interesting facts and considerations. I would just point out that the difficulties of the Italian yachts industry aren't due to the peculiarities mentioned of some of their models and brands.

    In recent years many Italian yachts manufacturers have gone bankrupt or have been bought (cheap). This is due to national economic factors that have seen the GDP drop by 20%, the introduction of heavy taxation on ownership and use of yachts, leading to an over 50% drop in the domestic market, especially in the mid segment; the competitive disadvantage due to around 30% higher costs than other countries (labor fiscal costs, revenues taxation, energy costs) and non financial factors such as bureaucratic inefficiencies.

    The dynamic and comfort properties of the boats are consequence of engineering design choices that are made in relation to the intended use. Some sacrifice marine qualities for larger volumes because some people may simply want a stylish villa on the sea, to use in the summer. As for “falling apart after a few years”, it can be noted that the world is full of consumer products that don't last long; they address the market segment of consumers that don't intend to be buried with them and don't mind the depreciation. Although that leaves exposed to criticism and negatively affects the entire industry (image, perception...).

    Some take shortcuts to reduce costs or lack the resources to make a more durable, comfortable, reliable etc. product. I don't think that's the case with AB Yachts who probably make a product with good technical content. The answer to the OP question is what Liam said; dated design, unappealing type in today's market, model specific elements.
  7. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Malta
    I cruised a Pershing 54 in Beaufort 5 quite a few times. Yes some models are not as good as others.
    The 88 is a good boat, the 80 and now 82 is also good and fast. Btw the 80/82 has a 20 degrees deep Vee hull.
    Otam 80 is very good, obviously due to filling it with furniture there is some compromises to the original Buzzi prototype.
    But then again this is a boat which possibly only a Magnum can compete with and may be lose.
    I prefer Baia to Pershing, I think they have a better hull and run the best with Arnesons surface drives. All Baia have 20-22 degrees deadrise hull. Some have a moderate entrance (48 and 54 models) others are close to perfect as the 63 Azzurra.
    I think comparing an Azimut Ferretti Sunseeker with a Sealine Bavaria Beneteau Grp is not fair since we are speaking a different price bracket as well.
    That's not to say one is better to the other but when your price differs 20% plus we have to accept that boat a is not as strong.
    Still I think competitively priced European brands have improved in design quality terms in the last six-seven years.
  8. muscled430

    muscled430 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Italy
    honest
    honestly speaking, beneteau gives u the same quality of an Azimut or Ferretti at a much better price, which does not mean Beneteau has high quality, it means instead that Ferretti and Azimut have low quality
  9. muscled430

    muscled430 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Italy
    I will also add that quite often the yards want to increase the profits sacrifying the quality.......this is what Ferretti Group and Azimut are doing, just to mention 2 of them. They are very good in making appearing a boat cool (Miele kitchen, Frau seats, and so on), and they succeed because very few check the electric system or the engine room
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    11,330
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    This I can agree with you on. Azimut quality when it comes to electrical and systems and interior soft goods lasting leaves very little to be desired. Also access to locations of items you need to change 10 years down the road is non existent sometimes too. I believe a lot of it stems from having a multitude of subcontractors do the electrical and joinery work versus doing it in house.
  11. RUSSLAND

    RUSSLAND New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Italy
    Gentlemen, i need to give my insights here. My opinion is that the Initial Build Quality is not so significant factor to owner's satisfaction in general. The warranty provided by the shipyard and the technical service are way more important. EVERY boat has problems, however, say Riva normally values it's clients, and takes care of the quality issues their boats have. The truth is that it's better (for the owner) to stay close to the shipyard, for the repairs under warranty, spare parts, technicians, etc. If your cruising area is Med-go for Italian yard: Ferretti, Maiora, AB, Riva, etc. You take the delivery of a brand-new boat, enjoy 2 seasons on the water, then give it back to shipyard for warranty repairs. For that reason Dutch Heesen has opened the refit/repair facility somewhere in Med, in order to save the Heesen owners time and fuel to go back to Netherlands for refit/repairs.
  12. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,164
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    While both are important, I strongly disagree on the warranty service being more important than the build quality. Better to do it all right in the first place. Then, if you don't, warranty is important. I do not expect or desire going back to a builder for warranty service and don't feel I ever should have to. Warranty service on equipment, yes, but that's independent of the builder. I will not purchase from a builder that seems to have a regular stream of recent purchasers coming back time and again for warranty work. I don't have the patience to go through that.

    Also, living near the shipyard is quite impractical for many purchases. I don't live in the same country as any of the top sport boats like Riva, Pershing, AB, Sunseeker. As to warranty service on the boat, I have it fully available at a number of facilities. Luckily haven't needed much of it.

    I'm also not going to suffer through two seasons before getting any repairs.

    Curious, Russland, what kind of repairs are you talking about giving it back to the builder after two seasons for warranty repairs? Could you share some examples, please?
  13. RUSSLAND

    RUSSLAND New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    29
    Location:
    Italy
    What i see mostly are the problems with the hull paint . Almost ALL the yachts with striking metallic hull colors suffer from harsh marine environment. The combination of salt water and exposure to the blazing sun is very powerful against this fancy colors. In case of Riva 44 Rivarama Super our experience was the lacquer covered transom area. Other makes have not only the paint problems but quite often electrical issues. I need to note that boats from the SAME shipyard being the SAME model differ in the build quality. That's why it's essential to get good marine surveyor in case you enter the contract for a new build. But the decent surveyor will sure cost you $$$$$$.

    20140817_120746.jpg
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2017
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    5,164
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    The cost of a surveyor vs the price of a new boat if virtually nothing. We have two Riva's, one of which is a Rivarama and haven't had any problem with the hull paint of either. However, if it did need painting under warranty, there is no reason that would have to be done in Sarnico. That could easily be done by a shipyard in the US. They have plenty of service facilities here.
  15. Eric Singer

    Eric Singer New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    Messages:
    1
    Location:
    North Carolina/ Belize
    I am thinking of purchasing a Baglietto 36m any insight into the quality of these yachts, 1990 model one owner. Seems extremely well maintained Eric
  16. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    Malta
    She is a 27 year old boat, maintenance will play a big part.
    Alloy build Baglietto's are strong, and have incredible sea-keeping, that is all I can tell.

Share This Page