Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by rmjranch, Oct 19, 2013.
How effective are the ethanol additives for gas engines?
I think e85 will be something that people and cars adapt to. It may take a while to get everything caught up, but when everything is right, we will have a lot more power and efficency avalible. Every time they change the rules for automotive paint, you will have bad paint jobs until people learn how to use the new paints. Prep and application still being important, but curing is far more important than it was. I personally think that is the issue with modern yacht paints. Many automotive paints need to be cured at specific temps and humidity. Are there heated, humidity controlled paint booths for yachts? Compared to a yacht, a small auto shop can afford to do some experimental paint jobs to learn the new paint. How feasable would that kind of "practice" be on yachts? People fear change, how much of the bad hype for new paints, e85, even new oils, is just resistance to change? Or lack of knowledge of the new product?
Gm and Mopar are supposed to have diesel cars and small trucks on the market by next year, Audi is supposed to send some diesel cars too. I think Ford is working on a diesel car too. Once the big 3 catch up, then the government will let the import stuff onto the market. Give it a few years and we will have access to some of those euro diesel cars, maybe some decent suv's too. Diesel and e85, the fuels of the future.
Very, but still not as good as pure gas in a boat. I wouldn't put ethanol fuel in a boat without a stabilizer for it.
Gentlemen, the OP is seeking advice on current yacht paints and not engine fuels.
HI: I have read with interest your many reports about the problems with Awlgrip after the formula was changed. I would love to lelarn more about this . I am new here and not sure if I have followed all od f the posts as they sometimes get off subject....Thanks for you help
I just had a hull painted with Awlcraft 2000 in Navy blue. The paint is near flawless and like a mirror, they didn't even have to wet sand and buff it. From the painters I've been speaking to and the paint jobs I've seen, there are no issues with traditional Awlgrip and it has been a rock rolid paint to use since around 2011 or so when they came out with new thinners and catalysts from what people have been telling me.
AwlCraft and AwlGrip have always had their different properties.
I have not seen sanding and buffing recommended for either and would certainly think a clear coat would need to be applied if this procedure were actually employed, not sure how doing this would affect any warranty on the topcoat product either.
If you have proof that AwlGrip has always been rock solid I am sure the big wigs at International would be very keen to see it as it may help win some monumental legal battles they are involved in.
"Awlcraft 2000 Only:
Waxing will help maintain the gloss on Awlcraft 2000 finishes, especially those which have been buffed or polished. Remember waxing leads to having to maintain the wax.
Do not wax areas unless they are dull or hazed"
The above is straight from the Awlgrip website, below is my writing.
On smaller yachts and especially dark colors (hulls) when painting them, after they are painted painters will wet sand the paint (polish it) with 1000 grit or even 1500-2000 grit and buff it to achieve a mirror like finish and remove "orange peel" if the painter did not achieve a good finish from spraying it. This can be done with Awlcraft 2000, Imron and a few other marine paints. Granted this will remove longevity a little bit. Traditional Awlgrip cannot be wet sanded or buffed nor should it be waxed either with wax. Also, when making repairs and spraying them, you have to wet sand and buff the area so that the new paint blends with the old paint or you have a very slightly area of overspray between the two. The Automotive industry always wet sands and buffs cars after they are painted if they are looking to achieve a show car paint finish.
From what I have seen and heard from several very reputable yacht refinishers. They have had no issues with Awlgrip nor Awlcraft since around 2011. Now this may be different in different climates (colder) where other reducers and catalysts are used besides slow and maybe medium reducers, other than South Florida. Another issue might be the painter not being able to adapt their methods. What I can tell you is this, I have seen and been involved with several paint projects with Awlgrip and Awlcraft 2000 since then and they have all come out near flawless, the mixing of the paint is a science in and of itself and just as important as the person holding the spray gun as well as the conditions in which the vessel is being painted in.
My father used to own an automotive body shop that I worked in as a kid and through High School. He also did paint some boats, APBA raceboats, a few Riva Ferrari's in bright red etc. RM was his favorite for Automotive, and Awlgrip or Imron at the time for raceboats, he preferred Imron for race boats and Awlgrip for pleasure or even pleasure raceboats. Also Imron over Awlgrip for metallics and Awlgrip over Imron for bright colors. Anyways, he also sprayed Dupont, PPG, and many others. No Matter the brand, he measured the paint and the catalyst, he NEVER measured the amount of reducer, he would do it by adding some, mixing, stirring, removing the stick at an angle and seeing how it ran off of the stick, adding more reducer. His paint jobs came out like a mirror, literally like a mirror. He has since passed away but he was that good. Even after watching him, helping him, working with him for decades, I could probably only achieve a paint job 70% as good as he did. I cannot tell you how many vehicles, yachts etc that I sanded,taped, and prepped growing up. I did spray some vehicles, but didn't really care for it. And, it didn't matter if he didn't pick up a spray gun for a year, the results were the same.
Really good painters have a feel for it and just do it, like an artist. Then many of the other painters (most painters) measure it by the book and come out with a paintjob that is somewhere between orange peel and grapefruit peel. Sort of like the Grapefruit peel on the yacht Cakewalk compared to the near flawless paintjob on Seven Seas. I saw them 1000' from each other i Fort Lauderdale and the difference was night and day. The other difference is painting a megayacht is really really a huge project and you're relying on many different painters all painting on the same boat at the same time, as you have to apply another coat within 45 mins of the prior coat. It really is a monumental achievement to paint a megayacht and get it right with all of the factors involved. Even a drop of sweat dripping on the paint creates a blemish. White was easy and hides many things. The metallics and dark colors really show the true skill of the painter.
I agree that the skill of the painter is paramount to the final result visually but the applicator has no control on the paint changing its appearance after it has been on a few weeks. I saw a white mega yacht that you could see the primer through in places 6 weeks after painting and it had been inside all that time.
Internationals biggest battle is over a white boat.
If I caught a painter buffing an AwlGrip boat I was responsible for they would be re painting it.
Awlgrip, no. Awlgrip should never be buffer, nor waxed, nor washed with soap such as Orpine and others. Awlgrip if washed with Awlwash always looks shiny. One yacht I took care of was going on 14 years on the Awlgrip topside paint, you'd wash it with Awl wash and it looked really shiny all of the time, yet you could see the red oxide primer showing through in several area's. I cannot tell you how many people I see mis-treating Awlgrip in the 100'< range.
But it depends on what you're looking to achieve on a yacht or boat finish. Most yachts are looking for longevity. Others such as race boats and some dark hulled 50-80' yachts are looking for the best possible shine and reflection and don't care that they have to repaint in 5-7 years instead of 7 or 8 or 10. It just depends. On a raceboat that is kept inside, it's all about maximum shine and reflection.
I think on that megayacht the painter simply didn't get the coverage they should have in those area's. It's really easy to do on such a large project. Could be one painter didn't mix the paint properly or many other things. Without seeing it, I would simply be speculating.
Marine paint. Mostly misunderstood. Awl Grip is a two stage linear aliphatic polyester
Polyurethane. Think of it as a coating of chemical high gloss plastic.
Awl Craft is a Acrylic aromatic urethane . The difference is in the compound structure one being a ring structure (aromatic) while the other is a chain structure. Both are high gloss and both have good durability in the marine environment . With the EPA passing regs to lower VOC's the manufactures went to aromatics.
Iron is a epoxy or vinyl ester product that's a different animal all together.
Two stage linear paints don't take well to wet sanding, cutting and blending as once you break the molecular outer structure of plastic you'll be back in six months polishing that same spot that you repaired.
Spraying either of these types of coatings takes special consideration for ambient temperature and humidity in the paint hall as the applicator is using a designated converter to counter act less than optimum conditions and then is reducing the mixture for a flow rate adequate to spray from either a HVLP or conventional gun.it is my opinion that the northern European yards that have dedicated climate controlled paint cathedrals obtain the best results in the industry.
Acrylic urethanes are much more forgiving when doing the above do to the molecular structure. Most automobiles are painted with acrylic enamels and can be wet sanded and buffed to a high shine and then sealed with glaze and polish / wax.
Any paint contract for a vessel larger than 30 ft should include the attendance of a coatings specialist that knows what wet mil thickness is required to avoid "holidays" or dry spots / transparency . Gloss meters are in common use as well the ability to measure or calculate acceptable debris in the paint be it dust or " orange peel"
Employing such a person is money well spent. As far as Awl wash and Awl wax and soon to come the amazing Awl chamois ( joking) heck, chock that up to fantastic marketing . You don't wash your car with anything stronger than dish soap do you? Actually , most dish soaps are still to strong by containing detergents and water based surfactants as Orpine does. Use common sense and wash the boat with a low ph soap with low detergents and you'll be nice and shiny for years to come.
Well the main issue with Orpine and some other marine soaps that are simular and using them on Awlgrip is that they're Ammonia based and the Ammonia really eats at the Awlgrip. I have gotten away from Orpine and similar soaps completely and have settled on Aquatech boat wash (which appears very similar to Awl-wash) on gelcoated boats and other paints. I use the Awl-wash soap exclusively on Awl-gripped boats as I have had very good results with it both in how it cleans and longevity of the paint and it's priced competitively enough. If the paint manufacturer recommends using a certain product, I am going to stick with that product exclusively unless I have a very good reason not to use that product.
I wouldn't think of washing my car with dish soap or a yacht...... I use a good car wash soap that is mild..... The Meguiars gold.
Automotive paint is usually a poly-eurethane base coat/clear coat (with the good paints and good vehicles). Enamel is cheap paint and generally used on cheaper brands and cheaper re-paints.
Alexseal is also polyurethane but has different care instructions. Still I think their recommended washing products is a good list.
3M Multi-Purpose Boat Soap
Aquatech 501 Boat Wash Concentrate
Boat Life Boat Soap
Liquid Glass® Wash Concentrate
Meguiar’s Flagship Premium Marine Wash
Sudbury Boat Zoap
Ivory dish soap has a ph of 4.5 Miguirers gold 9.2 ? Dawn dish soap has a ph of 7.6
Capt J , your fear of dish soap is I'll founded Ivory will never strip wax or hurt your finish. automobile base coat clear coats are another discussion as far as what's base acrylic urethane and poly urethane clear coat. All I can say is you don't have to drive very far to find a car next to you with the clear coat burned through by the sun. Your just programed to purchase marine products due to great marketing and being programmed to think that if it's recommended by the manufacturer than it must be good or right and not think that the manufacturer has any skin in the game to recommend that product.
I've used all of those over the years. I've found the Aquatech 501 is a very good soap, very effective, and not harsh. Meguiar's a lot of people rave over, but it's not very effective in getting black streaks and things like that out. If you wash the boat weekly it's a good soap.
No, the reason I use them is warranty and they work. IF you ever have an issue with say an Awlgrip painted yacht. The first thing the rep. is going to ask you is, how have you been maintaining the finish. If you tell them you've been washing it with Dawn dish soap, they are not going to warranty it. Also marine soaps are biodegradable so you do not get into any environmental issues using them. Especially in area's like Nantucket where you get fined even if you let grey water be pumped out. Also an owner can never ask why you're not using boat soap to wash his boat. A quart of the Aquatech soap is around $8 or so, would I really be saving much money by using dish soap???? Hardly.
Same reason I always use the CAT oil/filters, MTU oil/filters, or Man oil/filters to do an oil change. That is what the engine builder recommends and neither the owner nor the manufacturers can fault you for using the recommended product if $$$$ hit's the fan.
Joy or Dawn will strip the wax off of your car. I don't study the PH of dish soap, I use it to wash dishes and I buy a good car wash soap to wash my car. My car is a 2008 and the factory paint still looks perfect with a great shine. I wash it with the Mequiar's and wax it with Zymoil every 6 months and that's it. Most clear coats burning off were actually bad paint systems and had nothing to do with care of the paint. PPG for instance used a laquer base coat and urethane clear coat and lacquer has to breathe and urethane does don't breathe, so the voc's given off over time from the lacquer caused the clearcoat to dis-adhere.
I use Ford motorcraft oil and oil filter to change my oil, why because that is what the manufacturer who built my car recommends and you can never have any warranty issues over it.
You will probably be taking a dirt nap
before the membership focuses on your query.
Meanwhile, just curious, have you ever considered vinyl?
Just how long is your so called Awl Grip warranty?? To funny! I give up and admit that I'm wrong on all counts. I will now slink back from which the hole that I crawled from and search for my precious.
...I'm happy that you purchase Motorcraft and Cat filters but suggest that you attend a few coatings classes before pontificating about your advanced knowledge of coatings. I don't drive boats but I project manage large paint jobs for a living. by your admission of " I've watched" or I've been involved in" scenarios just doesn't cut it for you to be any type of authority other than the arm chair type . Awl Grip has a nice paint application center in Cocoa Beach that will properly educate you. Classes start every Wed. Sorry for straying off topic of the OP' topic. Captholli out!!
I never said that I am a painter, an expert at painting (it's been over 15 years since I've sprayed anything with a spray gun), or whatever, but I do have a very good general knowledge of paint. But given your recommendations, I'm sure Awlgrip would be happy to know that you recommend that your people wash their Awlgrip paint jobs with dish soap. I'm sure that would go over really well. Because all of the additives in Ivory were put in there, just for the odd person to wash their Awlgripped yacht with. It's not necessarily the PH of the soap, it's also all of the additives that are put in the soap as well. As for me, I'm more than happy and my customers are more than happy with having their Awlgripped yacht, washed with Awlwash soap. Funny how alexseal's list provided by Olderboater has 6 boat soap recommendations for their paint, and there isn't Ivory dish soap on their either. But, they do have one automotive soap (liquid glass). Must be a highly coveted secret that Ivory is the best.
Perhaps you should find another yacht to be a relief engineer on?
I own a very successful Yacht Management business and also work with several well respected Yacht manufacturers. I maintain several different management yachts. I step foot on 100's of different yachts per year. That being said, I have taken care of 100's and 100's of yachts with paint over the years of various ages. From a fresh re-paint to 14 year old paint. I have also dealt with every single type of yacht paint out there and maintained it. I have also had some of my customers yachts re-painted or painted and therefore do have some good real life experience with how paint jobs are coming out these days. Also, all of the well respected yards and painters at those yards have told me various information when I've talked to them about painting one of my customers yachts as well as their recommendations. I have also gotten feedback from various manufacturers. I also got a paint job once on a yacht I managed where the customer chose a very well respected painter in Fort Lauderdale, many people speak very highly of the company. Many other painters all say that, that company puts on the bare minimum in mil thickness etc etc......They had to re-spray the hull 4 different times because it had grapefruit peel, never did get it right, and I had to load it on the ship it was slated to load on. As I am typing this, I have paint work going on, on 2 different yachts and gelcoat work on 1. I don't deal with megayachts out of choice. I worked on a few many years ago and decided I didn't want to sign my life away for months at a time.
That being said, I maintain things the way the manufacturer recommends they be maintained. They should know more about their product than you or I would. Most educated and logical people also maintain things the way they are recommended to being maintained by the manufacturer. I stated my real world experiences, my observations over the years and so forth. Everyone's experiences may be different, as is how a paint holds up in various climates and forms of care. Someone else's experience might be different. If you maintain things the way the manufacturer recommends they be maintained and you have an issue, you have no liability on your end.