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Which 3D rendering engine/CAD combination

Discussion in 'Yacht Designers Discussion' started by BjornS, Oct 28, 2008.

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  1. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Hello to you all!

    This is my first posting on this forum. I have a question that I hope that someone could help me solve. In the November 2008 edition of Showboats on pages 48-49 there are six 3D renderings of a concept superyacht design called Project Light by Nauta Yachts. Just beautiful and realistic 3D work. I don't have any other source than that magazine to refer to in this case.

    Would any of you care to participate in trying to figure out which 3D rendering engine and combination CAD application they may have used to achieve such detail and realism?? If you have not seen the renderings, I encourage you to look for the magazine for a view.

    Looking forward to your thoughts.

    Bjorn
  2. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    This as a follow-up to my own post. I have attached the two pages I mentioned in my first post to give an indication of the 3D rendering quality.

    However, since I scanned the magazine images on a flatbed scanner (a bad one at that) the quality is really bad. The original 3D images - of course - would be flawless.

    I think that Nauta Yachts did an excellent job with their 3D work. Not only with the technical aspects, but the overall design as well. And I would love to learn which software they may have utilized to accomplish such results. I am leaning toward one of AutoDesk's products or maybe Cinema4D, but I really do not know.

    Anyone with insider knowledge out there? :)

    Bjorn
  3. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Hi BjornS,

    Sorry, but the pictures you have scanned from the magazine can not be published here without being approved by the copyright holders, so we have deleted them.
  4. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Lars - förlåt mig. I should have read up on the rules before attaching any images. Just wanted to show the wonderful images connected to my original question for those not having access to the Showboats International magazine.

    Neither the designers nor the magazine have posted any (yet) online links to Project Light. Only the printed version so far.

    So to all 3D designers out there - - if you have access to the printed magazine - - do you have any ideas of which software that can have been used for this specific project?

    Bjorn
  5. ratrace2

    ratrace2 New Member

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    Post a link to the page

    Hello,
    Why don't ya just post a link to the page so we can see it. You don't have to post the actuall pics.......

    There are a ton of 3D renderings packages out there:

    3D-studio max with mental ray.
    Cinimea 4
    Rhino and V-ray.....
  6. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Hi ratrace2

    Thanx for your reply. I previously looked for online links and found nothing.

    However, your question made me do a search again, and in the last several days the Italian ship builder Fincantieri has added one image of Project Light to their website (click picture to enlarge - but not a large image).
    http://www.fincantieri.it/cms/data/pages/000089.aspx

    The designers at Nauta Yachts' has not posted anything yet.

    I have also seen an ad from Nauta Yachts with one picture in 'Boat International' November issue (page 231).

    I am aware of the software packages you mentioned. Maxon Cinema 4D is a high contender, and Autodesk's 3ds Max and AliasStudio may also be in the top running. The question is also what combination software may have been used. Not to mention the CAD system(s), but one could not figure that out from the final rendered images of course.

    Not so sure about Rhino though.

    So - those of you with extensive 3D software experience may be able to discern what software was used for this project. I know it is difficult to know for certain, but we all may learn something from the process itself. Myself included.

    Bjorn
  7. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    Bjorn, couple things...

    We ran a simple press release on Project Light, located in YF's News section. Previously, we have published extensive features on Fincantieri's... ahem, visions; such as 'Wave', 'Marco Polo' 'Morpheus', 'Goldmine' and 'Prospect', only to find these renderings are being used to generate buzz and most likely, test the market. I find it concerning when a company uses the media (our media specifically) as a form of market research, with little or no intention of building the same unless a buyer can be sourced.

    On that same subject, your interest in this "Project" seems far more than a passing interest in the software used to generate the renderings, so let me advise you on something; if we find out you're in *anyway* related to these companies, not only will we ban you AND any information on the aforementioned, we will do this publically so that others are aware of your business practices. So you know... it is FRAUD to pose as a 3rd party and it is prosecutable if a recommendation is involved.
  8. ratrace2

    ratrace2 New Member

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    YF's objections to Bjorns' issues.

    I'm not sure I unerstand YF's objections?

    (a) does YF object to bjorn's publishing an image of a yacht that is for, purely, speculative purposes, (b) YF objects to bjorn trying to sell a potential customer on the idea of said yacht design?

    Hum........

    Respectfully, ratrace2.
  9. ratrace2

    ratrace2 New Member

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    Actually, you can figure it out from the software package.
    For instance, Rhino can't create the wave formation that you see in the Pic's but 3dMax and mental ray can. You see, it's about what the software does and I'm sure tha Rhino and v-ray won't--well not without alot of fussing--create the wave formation that surrounds that boat in the link that I looked at....So.
    For your purposes, I would go with 3dmax and mental ray.....actually...I would bet money on it....if you want to re-create that image to the same standard....or better........................
  10. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Thank you ratrace2. :)

    '3dmax and mental ray' ... very interesting. :cool: So you could make that out from the water alone? I really appreciate your input very much. Very positive feedback. Yes, I really am looking for software that will give the best results possible creating a realistic world.

    Would you also be able to recommend which CAD application(s) that work best or really well with renderers like 3dsmax and mental ray?

    This is exactly the kind of clues and answers I was looking for. Some kind of trace toward a 3D package that may have created said design. I personally have yet to experience using 3D applications. I deal mostly in the 2D world. I would go as far as saying I am an expert with Photoshop (since 2.5), and I can do anything with that program - including superyachts - and similar (like Lars Modin and Illustrator). But it gets very tedious to keep making those designs in a program that is so "one sided" in view, so I want to get into the 3D world to take things to the next level. And I hope that I don't have to purchase a bunch of applications and potential extra hardware just to learn, create and test for various quality and realistic outcomes. A too expensive and time consuming process for one individual like myself.

    Again, your input is very, very much appreciated. I thank you!

    Bjorn
  11. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Hi Yachtforums

    I appreciate your thoughts and concerns.

    Since you are the owner of this domain and forum, you of course have all the rights to accept and ban anyone and anything you like at your own will and choosing at any time. Totally understandable.

    However, that you are making purely false and misdirected accusations and threats towards me (including legal action) without any merit whatsoever on this public forum, is truly, truly mindbogling. :confused:

    First off - I have no relations - business or private - with anyone within the yachting industry or software industry whatsoever.

    Second. I am a male - about your age (you can guess my geographical background based on my name) - who is simply interested in learning about the yachting industry, the technical issues surrounding said industry, and the designs that is part of the industry. I have been interested in this since the year 2000, when I first happened to stumble across an issue of one of the leading boat international magazines when passing through Schiphol airport in Amsterdam. It kind of changed my life in a way that day. Since, I have tried - to the best of my ability - to learn more about design and software related to the yachting world. I have a background in professional photography, design and art, and this (to me) fell right in there with fantastic visuals, form and creative challenges, in addition to all the technical obstacles that would follow.

    I thought when I came across this website the first time a couple of years back, that it would offer a forum to like-minded people looking to share, ask, post and learn more within the field of yachting, designing, building, "captain'ing", etc, etc. I was a reader for the longest time, but decided to start posting a little on your forum. And this is the welcome one can expect to get here? Hmm...

    If you have issues regarding individuals, companies, organizations, publications, and others who may be looking to publish or market their products or services for free through sites like your own, then that is of course your right. However, looking at other postings within these forum pages, there seems to be commercial entities already present. Maybe you are selective in your choices who you allow or not, but I assure you, I am no commercial entity in the world of yachting or software. I am only one individual who are looking for answers to design, software, technology and more. For me it is all about learning. If I can share any of my own one day, then I will do so. There seems to be plenty of individuals (commercial or not) who already are doing so.

    Earlier today I tried to post a link within this thread to (I am now guessing) a superyacht news site that you may think is an arch rival to your own, because my posting was denied when I tried to ad a link to said commercial news service. I simply tried to give the other readers a link to show what I am talking about regarding potential software. I removed the posting since there was no way for me to explain what I was trying to show visually. Maybe you got a glimpse of that posting, although it was not on for more than a minute this afternoon.

    I regret to be a target of baseless accusations, and if I get banned from this site because I had a question to ask, then so be it. I hope you publicly will reconsider your words, though. There are of course many ways and various means we all can utter our opinions about any topic out there on the world wide web.

    Let's be friends, and keep the conversation going, shall we? :)

    Bjorn

    PS - being the publisher - why have you chosen to be anonymous? If I missed your name somewhere on the forum pages, my mistake.
  12. ratrace2

    ratrace2 New Member

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    3dmax is the CAD; mental-ray is the rendering engine....look at Autodesk...both are in one package...
  13. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    Thanx ratrace2. Got it.

    My thinking (looks like mistaken thinking :eek:) has been that I should look for a software package that could help build structural/technical applications of a ship/yacht, then import that file into e.g. 3dsMax, and then apply a final surface renderer. Reality is that my interest lies both in the technical and conceptual arena, but more so in the conceptual department. So 3dsMax with the best renderer is probably the way to go for now. NA's can of course be pulled in at a later point if it gets to that point in the future. I'm sure there are plenty of NAs here on this forum as well.

    I have also seen other excellent quality works out there (on various designer's online galleries) using Cinema4D with various renderer(s). Do you have any experience regarding 3dsMax vs Cinema4D (user friendliness, learning curve, compatibilities, quality, etc)?

    Bjorn
  14. PFJW

    PFJW New Member

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    I am happy to have been involved in one of those "visions". I'm sorry if some don't agree with the concept of publicity, but having the opportunity to work with a yard and designers on a project, even if only to a conceptual level for publicity purposes rather than full construction, is not something everyone is given. I appreciate that and consider myself lucky to have had that experience.

    Unfortunately, Bjorn, I don't know exactly which software these renderings were produced with. I would agree with ratrace2's suggestion of something Max-based.

    There don't seem to be any short cuts to achieving that high standard, however. And rightly so. People work hard to get good set ups, scenes, lighting and materials, and if that is how you earn a living you are unlikely to give up those secrets for free!

    Oh well, back to tweaking the settings...
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2009
  15. ratrace2

    ratrace2 New Member

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    OK, first of all, you are mixing the CAD with the CAM.
    Let's just do the CAD for now.
    Now, if this is your first CAD program. I want you to buy RHINO. and then get V-ray for RHINO. Both will cost you about $1700 (USD) cheap and easy.
  16. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    PFJW

    Really good to hear from one of you guys who have been there and who are working on one of those visionary aspects of potential realities. I wish I was there to observe.

    I also do understand the no cutting corners filosofi. My personal work and sense of commercial design and photography is that it is all about details and perfection, and like with any form of design and art, it is always about the artist who can visualize, understand and fully execute those visions in digital or physical form. The computer is just the tool.

    I am no software guru, but regarding yachts/superyachts and for my own satisfaction, I need to make as much reality as possible - conceptually and physically - from the beginning. It is important to me. Whimsical ideas and concepts are always fun and important as well, but when final presentation is due, the final rendering or image better be of the highest quality available. Therefore - like the consensus seem to drive towards - 3dsMax w mental ray may be the target then.

    I have taken your advice to heart, and best of luck with your continued tweakings.

    :)

    Bjorn
  17. BjornS

    BjornS New Member

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    ratrace2

    Yes, it would be my first 3D software (ad)venture. Like you stated, I have also been told from others as well that Rhino could be a good starting point. They also said that it may be easier to start with Rhino, but that it also has its own limitations in what I am trying to achieve in the end.

    I am a self-described detail freak. I like intricate and realistic looking renderings with that extra flare. On that note, I am wondering if Rhino (w V-ray) can help with what I want to create in the end. Also, if starting with Rhino, is it easy to migrate to the other softwares like 3dsMax later? Or are they just completely different beasts that require a different learning set for each of them? If so, maybe I instead should go straight to the "pro team" from the get-go. 3dsMax. Decisions, decisions.

    Thanx for your link, and I looked at your renderings. I specially enjoyed how you managed to bring out the feel of chrome (15.png). Good stuff indeed. After looking at Rhino creations out there, I think I am starting to get a feel of how Rhino (and V-ray?) looks and feels to me. My personal goal is to visualize with as much realism as possible, and I wonder if the Rhino (w any combo renderer) will do that for me ... but I am the novice here of course.

    So many questions - so little time ...

    Bjorn
  18. ratrace2

    ratrace2 New Member

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    3D software packages

    Well, of course I have been assuming that there is some limit to the money that you want to spend on these software packages.

    If, on the other hand, there is no limit to the money you are able to invest then you might want to investigate Maya.

    I would recommend that you go to the autodesk web site and evaluate the price/benefits costs of each of their hight-end software packages.

    I would rank each in the following order (a being highest):
    (a) Maya
    (b) 3D studio Max
    (c) Rhino
    (d) Alibre

    Now, let me make a point about cross compatability.

    Rhino files can be imported into 3D max and vise versa. And if you look at the files extensions that each package can import and export you will see that alomost any 3D image file can be used in different packages.

    Second, for ease of learning, any of the above packages have their common ground, i.e. techniques abilities and features and functions. What you learn to do in one package can be done in the other package--in most cases--but most often not the same way.

    best of luck, Jerry
  19. CODOG

    CODOG Senior Member

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    I too would recommend Rhino to anyone starting off in 3-D modeling. Its getting better all the time and Rhino 4 even has some parameterisation which brings it even closer to higher end software both in terms of out-put and relevance in a professional design office.
    I also agree that many of the features / commands within Rhino are similar in effect and result to other similar but more expensive software...a good knowledge of Rhino will certainly make the transition to other software less of a mountain to climb.
    Its also worth mentioning that there are many translators available under licence that can convert one softwares native out-put to another in order to run it through a render package.
    I personally prefer Unigraphics over Maya or 3DS Max. Alias is great but I would have real issues in my current environment which is a 50/50 split between free-form and mechanical.
    I repeat myself by saying that the parameterisation offered within Unigraphics was a revelation to me, but accept that the free-form aspect is not as intuitive as in other software. Also, you mention detail....Unigraphics offers a bonus in that you can smother your model in fillets / blends / extrusions etc. and the file size remains relatively small and stable...try the same in Rhino and the model becomes colossal and slow.
    Rendering with Mental Ray is fine...V Ray I would argue is better. Better still, in my humble opinion is Maxwell.
    I stress that I am a dinosaur when it comes to all this computer malarky...I've had to teach myself through basic Acad all the way up to UG without really understanding the tech involved...but I know from experience and comparison what floats my boats.
  20. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I downloaded the new Rhino for Mac a couple of months ago. Then I imported one of our boats made in Rhino to see if I could modify it as a starter. Nothing was going my way... :( So I gave up.

    I know exactly how I would like a 3D program to work, but haven´t found it yet. And as long as I can design a boat 100 times faster in 2D, I will continue with this. In fact, besides it would be an advantage to have it done in 3D for milling, I don´t like the 3D renderings I see, the best are the worst...:D