Click for Fendertex Click for Mag Bay Click for Seacoast Click for Walker Click for Llebroc

What will yachts and yachting look like in 2015?

Discussion in 'Popular Yacht Topics' started by Windswept, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,854
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    I think a catamaran might be a better choice for that bit of cruising....the Chesapeake Bay and its tributaries are a lot more shallow than many believe.

    Here is a flyer I created many years ago...notice the depth emphasis:

    Attached Files:

  2. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,854
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    WOW, I just realized that flyer I posted was created 26 years ago :eek:

    I've got to get a new life :rolleyes::cool:

    Just read back thru this thread and I would have to agree with many of Marmot's observations...the superyacht group is not going to adopt that many new 'green things' anytime soon....even with the fuel price increases.

    But that shouldn't stop the drive forward to create these new technologies...just requires develop monies that might be in a little short supply in our current economic climate, particularly the boating one.
  3. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Submarine

    One word submarine... ultra quiet... ultra smooth ride... ultra efficient... ultra cozy... ultra high tech... ultra private... ultra cool... ultra expensive
  4. carelm

    carelm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    412
    Location:
    fairfax va
    Brian,

    Here is a website that shows the depths at various points of the Chesapeake Bay along with marker buoys. While the site indicates it's not for navigation, you can get a fair idea of where it's not a good idea to venture into. You're right about a number of the tributaries and coves being pretty shallow.

    http://earthnc.com/chesapeake-bay
  5. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Shallow Waters... ?

    Well these posts about shallow waters... sure threw a monkey wrench into my submarine idea. Darn, it was a good time too with the couple 214s were sitting around Kiel since Greece stopped paying...

    So its back to the old flat bottom wooden skiff for me.
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,854
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    Repower, Reprop for efficiency

    After the all the changes, Sea Streak Wall Street (43 m Incat Crowther design catamaran ferry) is now 15 tonnes lighter than originally built. She recently underwent sea trials, recording speeds of 35 knots. At equivalent deadweights, this represents a reduction in top speed of only 3 knots, despite a significant reduction in power and half the number of main propulsion engines. Combined with an increased in passenger capacity, the refit will see per-passenger CO2 emissions halved.

    Seastreak cat gets c.p. propellers instead of jets - Marine Log

    Attached Files:

  7. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Seriously, what's new?

    Styling:
    In looking over the new group think resulting in yacht styling being definitively looking like they belong to some dreadnought class warships... what's new and it seems that trend to continue is to be expected. Dreadnought sailing and motor yachts with more freeboard and more above water volume. The later is actually new concept to the dreadnought style.

    Naval Architecture:
    I suppose along with the dreadnought styling hull forms will become more shallow with flatter runs midships aft to waterline at the extreme stern end resulting in wider and wider fantails all in the name of stability and low drag long with really to support the all important stern to party space and larger and more involved garage spaces. This is new to the dreadnought form from the late 19th and early 20th century quite opposite really. This will likely evolve into an abbreviated extreme aft trimaran design and stability flare. The hollow sections created by the trimaran will become docking and transportation garages or "pod's" to increase tender storage capability and give more center garage space. Of course the garage will become a catch-all storage and create packed messes to look at from the dock underlying all the sleek style.
    The bow with flair is dead replaced by a near vertical or reverse section creating a wave piercing section entry. I suppose someone will figure out how to add a hydrofoil / submarine drive plane like fins make up for the loss of volume forward. Even adding active control for fore and aft stability.
    Someone will figure out with the plan view looking like an arrowhead and the minimal forward volume it makes sense to swallow the bow wave by having the underbody just aft of the bow actually rise to the waterline or even above and be flattened wherein the bottom actually is shaped to the water flow and the bow will become means of extending (cheaply) waterline length for increased speed. The will run aft creating a tri-hull underbody shape for stability, shallow draft and importantly to transition to the aft trimaran form.
    The boats will become very stable and much shallower in draft but possibly less seaworthy.
    Power:
    Power will stay diesels with popular additions of "Green" storage batteries and small electric trolling propulsion motors. Night time anchor time will be more and more batteries powering.
    Interiors:
    No comment...
  8. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Yes, Brian I think that's the direction. The additional width might have to be either technically overcome somehow or berths adjusted. But I can see it now with the new designs trending this way. Maybe as station keeping technology moves forward you will see also no anchors installed and maybe more and more tendency to "anchor out" or marinas becoming floating pods surrounded each surrounded by radially disposed yachts with the pods connected together to form floating grids...
    Just supposing...
  9. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    This is the direction


    PJ 48 - Super Sport Yacht | Palmer Johnson This Palmer Johnson is the direction I see things moving in... be ready just in time.

    Though I would pick something like one of the old Diana designs or suppose the Moonen Northlander is the style I would go towards... a little traditional with some modern touches... maybe a French designed interior though... Hybrid series type... drop the separate generator sets and go with large 1-1.6 mw battery Lithium Ion battery storage and with generators mounted between main engines and Voith Schneider water tractor propulsion with the bottom plate (like tug) and no fin stabilizers. Could run diesels direct coupled to shafts or uncoupled and electric drive around anchorage or harbor. Or, both for sprinting. Vioth could supply the bow thruster for install. Horizontal fin off the bottom plate at aft end to direct water flow to control off the back of hull. Leave chained anchors out and only have emergency anchors... rely on station keeping technology in anchorage. If I were very rich go to Siemens fuel cell as primary source... likely have to have hydrogen fueling station (pay for it) at berth. Length around 40 meters no more... builder don't know my have to take that up being prime myself... maybe Moonen or Royal Huisman as the put it all together yard. If steel hull and the exotic fuel cell propulsion plant would be done at Kiel if aluminum maybe let Huisman handle the hull or sub out to one of the many capable companies doing aluminum hulls for others. Likely for the diesel drive and propulsion other than if fuel hire Voith to deliver a completed module to the yard. Likely let Voith do the underwater naval architecture too with propulsion as package deal. Just musing.
  10. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,854
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    Boy, you guys went way over my head in those last two postings.....that an awful amount of new technology to have to develop in just a few years. And I'm not so sure you could find the owner/investor willing to put up the monies needed for that big of a leap at this time.

    BTW,
    Sorry guys those links I provided to the Humphrey's Skysail Motoryacht back in that other posting are no longer valid,....so here is a new one:
    Humphreys SkySail Yacht[1]
  11. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Billionaire Owner Needed

    Brain,
    Been thinking on it the technologies mentions are here today in in routine use. The Voith propulsion is quite old. The Lithium ion battery technology is pretty mature... however it does not have real good energy density... but it provides a simple chemical energy storage method which is reversible. The fuel cell technology is actually pretty mature but the limitation comes in with the Hydrogen storage, density and actually production so that is the limitation to use. However, some of the best submarines lurking in the ocean use that technology... certainly one could say that on nuclear subs too... but that technology is too difficult and expensive for private use. The diesel engine serial hybrid is really mature... actually the most mature of all and has been used in yachts, as has the Vioth Schnieder propeller. However, I have rethought a little.

    But one dreaming comment... Once ammonia fuel cells become available then one has solved the fuel storage issue. But it is still experimental though a car has been produced with this technology but a 40 hp car is not a 1000 hp yacht.

    What makes sense to start right now is the battery supplemented diesel powered serial hybrid. The Voith end plated water tractor technology is real exciting for yachts to and makes sense. This is affordable and proven.

    However, billionaires are usually businessmen and not engineers. Engineers may develop and design the technology but the billionaire owns and profits from it... So the billionaire gets the yacht and the engineer makes do with a row boat. And, billionaires did not get to be billionaires by not exploiting and controlling risk to benefit.
  12. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,320
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    ? Compared to what other battery technology?
  13. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Energy Density and More

    I was referring to other energy sources which helps determine reasonable proportions between diesel power, fuel cell power and battery power in the hypothetical near future yacht:

    Lithium Ion Battery... 4.3 MJ/Liter
    Diesel Fuel 37 MJ/Liter
    LNG 22 MJ/Liter
    Liquid Hydrogen 8.2 MJ/Liter
    Ammonia 11.5MJ/Liter.

    Example
    The type 212 submarine has 270 kw hydrogen fuel cell capacity (214 240kw).

    Hypothetically with a submarine... In diving operations which is relatively high power power for propulsion consumption of 200KW for around 8 kn/hr... the hydrogen use is 8 kg/hr which also requires 32 kg/hr of oxygen which equates to about 17 liters for H2 storage and 14.4 liters for oxygen storage for one hours operation... and a maximum duration of around 5.3 days using total capacity of the hydrogen fuel available. But the weight of the tankage for the hydrogen using TiFe metal hydride is about 70.5 kg for one hours worth of running. Note... the stores are outside the pressure hull. As this all takes up space and mass the traditional lead acid batteries used in subs are by necessity something perhaps likely sodium sulfide...

    This is a trade off between energy storage in reversible battery form or non reversible as hydrogen or non reversible diesel...as a trade off for the duration of the actual quoted hydrogen power duration of the type 212 is at 420 nautical miles or 52.5 hours... note, the margin might be greater than quoted. Note this is only used in submerged operation and the diesel in submerged snorkel (making the sub detectable) or surface. And, batteries submerged only... but as a way of storing energy from the diesel to use in submerged operation.

    As comparison hydrogen and diesel operations is that hydrogen has 142KJ/gm mass and diesel 43 KJ/gm... but diesel has a specific volume or storage advantage and specific mass storage advantage. BUT you cannot go undetected on diesel unless you use the very limited duration available stored in the batteries.

    For our hypothetical yacht... why bother?
    Yachts are pleasure devices and running diesel gen sets and engines even in the quietest of yachts is disturbing to some guests. And, its about not only "mine's bigger" but also "mine is better in some way". That's why there are rich people... . Certainly crossing oceans diesel makes sense... but few owners are present... many even ship the yacht across. In the later case two reason the lessor of which is wear and tear the more important is to have the boat and crew fresh and ready to serve the quests and owner.

    The usually for the rich set important use of yachts is entertaining in or around the marina for from one to the next or as a relaxing get-a-way. Not sneaking around under the surface. But grinding engines and generators or machinery is not real compatible with that either... no matter how well isolated.

    So yachts may not have military importance but stealth and status do apply and are similar in requirement. Cruising around the marina or secluded bay silently is golden... if one can operate on stored energy like batteries or something other than diesel it can really make the experience both more enjoyable while impressing people. Though my grandfather spent much of his life and time crossing oceans mostly under power he preferred sail for pleasure... but with that still the gen set grinds away and the mostly land lubber guests did not like to be tilted either!
  14. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,941
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
    Love that picture of the Wake-Adapted (Twisted) Rudder. Some good engineering dollars spent on computational fluid dynamics (CFD) there;)
  15. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Have a picture for nearly the same thing at Moonen from a couple years ago.. cannot remember the name of the yacht offhand but it was one of there fast displacement... somewhere on my hard-drive.

    But here is the Rolls Royce Promas controllable pitch prop and rudder system... nearly the same.
    Rolls Royce Promas propulsion and manouvering system - YouTube

    Here is the Kamewa Ulstein controllable pitch prop...
    Controllable pitch propeller Kamewa Ulstein CP Propeller - YouTube

    Here is Hundested
    Hundested Propeller - YouTube

    Here is Voith Schneider Prop
    Voith | Voith Schneider Propeller

    Finally here is Voith Schneider applied to Yachts.... and also I think shows their Inline Thruster... electrically perimeter electric magnetic drive system.
    http://www.voith.com/en/products-services/power-transmission/applications/yachts-14346.html
    :)
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  16. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2011
    Messages:
    655
    Location:
    Gone
    Here is a nice video showing underwater the Littoral...
    Austal LCS Coronado Loadout (1-9-12).wmv - YouTube
  17. Don Novello

    Don Novello New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    10
    Location:
    Cowes
    Honestly, 2015 is around the corner and already there's such diversity of yachts... I don't think there will be a huge difference... now what I'd like to know, what will yachts look like in 2115...
  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    7,390
    Location:
    My Office
    Hi,

    I am looking at a GA for one to be delivered 2016/17 depending when and if deal goes ahead.

    It is not much different to one that was delivered a few years ago.