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What model of Perkins is this?

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Santelia, Aug 16, 2013.

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  1. Santelia

    Santelia Member

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    Hi everybody,
    could anyone be so kind to give me a help in finding out what model of Perkins is this engine, as you can see in the pictures linked below?
    I suspect it could be a 6.354 NA, but someone has told me it might be a previous "slim" version. And I didn't find any literature about the last one.
    Any help?

    Here are the pictures:

    IMG_01

    IMG_02

    IMG_03

    IMG_04

    IMG_05

    IMG_06

    IMG_07
  2. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    It is a Perkins 6-354 for sure

    The Fuel Filter in Photo No 7 would have originally been a CAV 7111-296 if my memory serves me correctly.
  3. Santelia

    Santelia Member

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    Thank you K1W1, so it's not any "slim" version.
    The natural aspired 6-354 might give 115 hp instead of the 135 hp of the turbocharged one, right?
    Do you have any idea of of their typical fuel consumption rate?
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Sorry I cant recall that off the top of my head, the best I can do is ask a guy who used to run a pair in a 50 ft boat and ask him if he can remember.

    It has to be 35 yrs since I turned a spanner on one but do remember them being tough and very reliable engines used in all manner of applications.

    Like most manufacturers the NA engines were a lot more robust and reliable than their turbocharged cousins.

    If you do ever turbocharge it don't forget about the camshaft, the two engine types had quite different cam profiles.

    I have never heard of a slimline 6-354.

    Folks are discussing the fuel burn right here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f109/perkins-6-354-diesel-engine-fuel-economy-48464.html
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I had a 6t354 and I thought it was 200hp and I think that the naturally aspirated one was 135hp.

    They were robust and reliable. I put 900hrs on mine without an issue at all. However they leaked oil just like detroits....
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Here is a bit of Perkins History kindly sent to me by the Perkins Engine Company

    The 6.354 Story: The Making of a Legend

    If the P6 was the diesel engine that gained the early reputation for Perkins. The 6.354 restored the Company's image following the R6 saga and provided the foundation for worldwide growth through the 60s and 70s.

    The problems with the R6 had left Perkins without an engine for medium trucks that anybody wanted to buy, at least in Britain and the USA.

    During discussions with Ford in Detroit in 1957, Gordon Dawson, the then Director of Engineering, tried to sell the idea of the revised R6 for a new truck scheduled for production in 1960.

    Ford turned this down as insufficiently powerful, so Dawson offered the idea of a 120 BHP unit of a new compact design.

    This was accepted with reservations. The design of the engine continued back in Peterborough with considerable urgency, based on a new concept where the auxiliary drive was taken from a small jackshaft driven at engine speed from the timing gears.

    This allowed the use of the new DPA fuel pump, mounted vertically and driven through a wormwheel and pinion, with the lubricating oil pump
    driven coaxially by a quill shaft below the wormwheel.

    The extension of the jackshaft then allowed auxiliaries such as compressors, vacuum pumps or hydraulic pumps to be driven at engine speed, mounted off the cylinder block and driven through a simple flexible coupling.

    By using a low-positioned camshaft with long pushrods the timing case was kept small and allowed the water pump to be mounted above it, reducing the engine overall length, an important factor for trucks with engine compartments designed for V8 gasoline engines.

    Further reductions in the cylinder block length were made by paring water spaces between the cylinders to a minimum, and by using a bore dimension of just under 4 inches, coupled to the P6 stroke dimension of 5 inches.

    Thus an engine with a swept volume of 354 cubic inches (5.8 litres) was born, with an initial rating of 112 BHP at 2800 RPM.

    Another significant change from the previous 6 cylinder engines was the introduction of direct fuel injection, using a toroidal chamber in the piston crown rather than the Aeroflow chamber in the cylinder head.

    This resulted in more power from the same swept volume while improving fuel economy.

    With accurately cast inlet ports in the head and the new CAV pump and injectors, new standards of smoke emissions were also achieved.

    Development of the engine proceeded fast though not without problems.

    These included the wormwheel drive, cylinder head gasket, high oil consumption and crankshaft breakage.

    Production started in 1960 and, in 1962, over 24,000 engines were produced from a purpose-built facility at Eastfield where block, head, crankshaft and connecting rods were machined.

    The engine was a hit for most applications resulting in versions to power trucks, tractors, industrial and marine equipment. The rating for vehicles was soon increased to 120 BHP at 2800 RPM, whilst turbocharged versions (designated T6.354) were developed quickly for MF tractors, marine and industrial applications.

    The marine market proved especially attractive, with inclined versions of the engine being produced to fit below cockpits. Ratings of 150 BHP for general use were available, with much more for offshore powerboat racing where Perkins established an enviable position in the late 1960s.

    During this period, many changes were made to the engine to improve its durability, including revisions to the cylinder head gasket, valve train and piston assembly. Further changes, which included modifications to the cooling system, signalled the 'dot' series of engines.

    Changes of bore size were also introduced to meet MF requirements for engine power matched to the machine or tractor.

    Thus there were successive introductions to suit various market needs:
    • 6.3541
    • 6.3542
    • 6.372
    • 6.3721
    • 6.306
    • T6.3543

    Air-to-air charge cooling for the vehicle engine was claimed as another first on this size of diesel.

    For Mexico, where altitude caused considerable power loss and excessive exhaust smoke, a turbocompensated version (C6.3542) was developed with considerable success.

    One disappointment was the inability of Perkins to gain a lasting foothold in the American truck market.

    Although there was a reasonable level of penetration into some 'pick-up and delivery' sectors, there were service problems with the engines, some stemming from a lack of understanding of the actual market needs and driver habits.

    Sales stagnated and never reached the high expectations of Perkins in the early '60s. In the late 1970s, a major redesign of the cylinder block and head, plus changes to other components, resulted in the introduction of the 6.3544 and T6.3544 which eventually replaced all other
    versions.

    The changes included machined inlet ports and the elimination of the tappet side cover plates, bringing the appearance of the engine more in line with the 4.236 family. Rating rationalisation was also introduced as the increasingly stringent smoke requirements were addressed.

    Production of the 6.354 was not restricted to Peterborough. As licence agreements were signed around the world during the 60s and 70s, production of the engine began in Mexico, Argentina,
    Turkey, Peru, South Africa, Brazil and the USA.

    The 6.354 became an engine locally available to customers across the world, using some parts supplied as kits from Peterborough. The level of
    'nationalisation' varied, but gave an advantage to Peterborough where buying back components from overseas plants eased the supply position at times of high demand or industrial dispute.

    New engine applications were appearing all the time, including special versions for Alvis military vehicles: the easy adaptation of the engine design and the ready availability of many conversion parts made the 6.3544 family the product of choice for customers both large and small.

    The production of the engine in its various configurations in Peterborough alone rose to over 50,000 per year in 1969 and remained at levels around 40,000 per year from 1965 through to 1980.

    Volumes produced under licence around the world are not easy to separate out, but probably added around 20,000 units each year.

    By the mid 1980s, the 6.354 was overtaken by the new 1000 Series. This was designed around the same basic 1 litre/cylinder but with radical changes to achieve tighter emissions standards and meet demand for metrication and the needs of a more sophisticated market.

    A number of base engine components were however carried over from the 6.354, proving that when something is right there is no sense in change for the sake of change.

    As the new engine gained acceptance, and legislation tightened its grip, the 6.3544 volumes diminished. In 1996 the last engine came off the assembly track. A total of 1,018,307 engines were produced in Peterborough, plus significant volumes around the world.

    Many of these are still in use, proving the ability of this multi-purpose engine to give reliable, economical service wherever power is needed.

    There are not many engines that can claim a production life in excess of 36 years, although the Perkins P3 can now claim over 50. But that's yet another story...

    Article written by David Boulton, Heritage Group
    To find out more about Perkins Heritage please email REMOVED
  7. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    Thanks for posting that, very enjoyable and informative. I didn't know they made over a million of that series.
  8. Valliejan

    Valliejan New Member

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    Referencing your August 19, 2013 post about Perkins history (http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/what-model-of-perkins-is-this.21331/.)

    We own a 1937 Canadian fish tug that was converted to pleasure. The engine is what we knew as a Perkins 120. It has developed a loud rattle. It has been diagnosed as a possible broken piston ring or wrist pin bushing. Our mechanic can't be sure because there is no room to drop the oil pan. The engine would have to be pulled to fix if it's fixable. After much searching on the Internet we have learned that it is a naturally aspirated 6-cylinder engine. The identification number on the fuel injector bracket is 354U161720. There are no other letters with that number. We are aware 354 is cu. in., U means manufactured in the United Kingdom, and 161720 is its serial number.


    We have been trying to identify the year of manufacture of the engine. In a 1969 registry from Canada, the engine was gasoline. The man who bought the boat in 1977 and converted the boat to pleasure kept the Perkins engine that was in it. The Canadian fisherman has died.

    This information indicates that the Perkins was produced from 1960 to 1974 (numbering change in 1974.) Don't know if the fisherman purchased a new or used engine to replace the gas one, but am wondering if the number of the engine gives you any indication of the year of production. It matters in that we have been trying to sell the boat for the last two years (we are 81 & 74) and want to be honest in our advertising of the boat about how old the engine is. We have decided not to put the money into it to fix or replace the engine.

    If you can give us any further information, or a reference, it would be greatly appreciated. It's a great character boat and the rest of it is in great shape. It would be a shame to not have it used on the Great Lakes for many more years to come.
  9. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    I wouldn't be too worried about the exact year. It is a 6.354 and as most were NA it will be pretty standard.

    Instead of removing the engine, Is it possible to lift the engine up far enough to drop the Oil Pan and undo the conrod bolts by reaching underneath?

    I have seen one where they could only get about 8" of clearance, the Oil Pan had to be cleaned in situ but the engine was rebuilt and ran well.
  10. Valliejan

    Valliejan New Member

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    Thank you for your prompt reply. We will keep that in mind. It's an idea for anyone interested in the boat.

    Your message about the Perkins history was enlightening. Thank you so much for sharing it.
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I remember a not to distant story from one of my machine/builders working on a Perkins.
    Because of the different locations these engine were built with different specs on the crank, rods & pistons the part supplier told my shop to send a sample of what they needed and specs on the crank. Seems serial numbers are not as accurate as thought. A couple of phone calls later, the crank was turned locally. A short two weeks later the correct rods, pistons, bearing & gaskets were received. All went together like a glove.
    The Perkins simple design lives and well. We have a customer with a later DeFever that could not be any happier than with his pampered Perkins.
  12. bobhorn

    bobhorn Member

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    We had a four cylinder Perkins on our sailboat. One of the local diesel shops told me that that particular engine was built under license by Mazda and that they mixed and matched Lucas and Japanese injection parts. Ours had a Diesel Kiko injection pump but according to him it may have had Lucas or Japanese injectors. The only way to tell was to remove them.
  13. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Diesel Kiki was or is a manufacturer that manufacture under license to Bosch. There is not anything wrong with their gear in my experience and small Japanese diesels are well known for superb reliability and longevity so all in all I would say the use of these components just adds to the already good design.
  14. bobhorn

    bobhorn Member

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    A apparently when our engine was built in the early '80s they used whatever parts they had left over. So you could have a combination of Diesel Kiki and Lucas parts.

    Was a great little engine though, four cylinder, about 55 HP. Ran it out of fuel on several occasions, switched tanks and started right back up. No glow plugs, hit the starter and off it went.
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    I would hazard a guess it was a 4.236 but it could also have been a 4.108 as 55 hp is right between what each was rated at.
  16. bobhorn

    bobhorn Member

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    It was a 4.236, maybe 60 or 65 HP?