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What happens to power boating when we run out of oil?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by CaptCook, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

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    I'm glad you have had a good personal experience with your Toyota's, I'm not convinced that means Tesla is proven however. Did you google "tesla problems"? If you did you'd view many issues that have cropped up which certainly make a good case for "unproven"; now you compare and contrast that with the good reports and make a judgement. For you the jury has come back with a glowing "all clear" - I'd counter that the tipping point for "proven" has not been reached yet with Tesla for many. Look at the previous discussions about the "next" thing in power/fuel right here in this thread.
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    We came very close to purchasing a Tesla. I have high hopes, but remain somewhat skeptical unfortunately. The many problems are one thing but for us the range was a killer. We were prepared to live with the stated range. Also, we were interested in the Roadster and now it's "Sold out in North America" and is not anticipated to return to the US. Now they are working on increasing range with 85 kwh vs the 60 kwh on the S. Still hoping for greatness, but I do remember when I was barely a teenager the most innovative car I'd ever seen. 9000 DeLoreans were produced. A fully equipped S model runs over $100,000. Convertible tempted me for local driving. Coupe doesn't.
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  3. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Wasn't it a Prius that went full throttle on a California highway and murdered a cop and his family? Granted, anyone with an IQ could have stopped it, but it was a cop driving so an IQ wasn't involved. No problems indeed. One caught on fire on the freeway here and killed a grandmother and her 3 grand kids. Yea, safe as could be...

    LPG, I'm not as familiar with, but propane gas is an excellent fuel. No carbon build up on gas generators, and it is great as supplemental fuel on a diesel. Idle the diesel on fuel, then add propane to increase the rpm. Burns clean, lowers egt's, but still runs enough diesel for proper lubrication. Like e85 though, it is higher octane and the engine needs to be built right to properly use it without losing efficency. But, being a gas, it mixes evenly with the air charge so atomization isn't an issue with long intake runners. With the right development, propane/LPG would be a great fuel.
  4. CaptCook

    CaptCook New Member

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    Any car has wear and tear and "problems" if you look deep enough, Toyota or not. The discussion is about alternative fuels and these models have proven the alternative energy and design using it works and reliably so, at least for me. The rest is personal opinion and preference.

    The oil is not going to get cheaper. You will not see it under a buck anymore in your lifetime. That's almost a certainty with the way things are going in Asia along, the biggest car market now.

    Fuel along keep many people from buying yachts. Those who buy you them much less than they used to.

    Fuel is actually my biggest concern. If and when I buy my SFMY, I want to use it and a lot but I'm not there yet to spend over $50K/year just for fuel along. I may end up just buying it for local shoreline cruising and bluewater fishing. At least in SE Florida it is very accessible.

    The search is on for a reliable alternative fuel and I believe that we will see it soon. You may have a different opinions.
  5. oceaneer

    oceaneer Member

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    Just a good article on LNG..
    OCeaneer

    In the burgeoning field of LNG-fuelled marine vessels, the Norwegians are global leaders. The Americans are a close second.

    But in B.C., vessel operators such as BC Ferries and other firms involved in the marine industry are opting to take a wait-and-see approach before embracing LNG's significant cost-savings.

    That was the sentiment from the final day of the recent Green Marine Conference held in Vancouver.

    The conference's concluding discussion – dubbed "LNG in the marine industry: From project to reality" – featured a four-man panel of experts representing companies such as nautical safety firm Lloyd's Register and BC Ferries.

    Greg Peterson, director of engineering services with BC Ferries, told attendees that although his company is obligated to explore all potential cost-saving avenues, the ferry operator would continue to rely on diesel fuel for the foreseeable future.

    Estimates from the conference pegged LNG as being half the cost of diesel. In the case of BC Ferries' largest vessels, which hold about 50,000 litres of diesel and are filled five nights per week, the savings would be substantial.

    Last year, BC Ferries investigated the potential savings of converting to LNG. In the case of one vessel, Queen of Capilano, that conversion would yield estimated annual fuel cost savings of $1.9 million. In converting 12 vessels, BC Ferries estimates it could save nearly $29 million per year.

    At $120 million annually, fuel represents the second largest expenditure at BC Ferries behind employee wages.

    The cost to retrofit a vessel to use LNG, according to BC Ferries, can vary between $10 million and $50 million, depending on the size of the ship. To build a new LNG-fuelled vessel, costs range between $60 million and $150 million.

    Peterson said that while the cost reduction is attractive, the challenge for BC Ferries would be co-ordinating a conversion schedule that wouldn't significantly disrupt service. BC Ferries currently operates 35 vessels on 25 routes with about 500 sailings per day.

    Developing the infrastructure to store LNG onboard a vessel is another barrier to investment.

    Paul Blomerus, senior director of high horsepower at Westport Innovations (TSX:WPT), a Richmond-based company that designs and builds natural gas engines, told Business in Vancouver that LNG needs to be kept in large cylindrical tanks, which take more room onboard a ship than a traditional diesel reservoir.

    To investigate such design problems – and other potential hurdles to using LNG as a marine fuel – more than a dozen companies, post-secondary institutions and government organizations have undertaken a sweeping West Coast Marine LNG Supply Chain Project initiative. Westport and BC Ferries are both participants.

    "Ferries are the focus now, but the marine market is more diverse than that," said Blomerus, noting that vessels such as tugboats, workboats, ferries and oil tankers would all require unique designs for LNG engines and tanks.

    Impending changes to environmental regulations are also driving the research. Beginning in 2015, all vessels on Canadian waters will be required to reduce sulphur emissions. According to research published by the Supply Chain and Logistics Association of Canada, LNG-fuelled ships could achieve sulphur emissions reductions of up to 90%.

    "Marine fuel consumption is significant in North America and the world. This represents a significant economic opportunity to switch," said Blomerus.

    "But there is also the environmental benefit of using cleaner burning fuel. There is definitely a greenhouse gas reduction benefit."

    A report from the West Coast Marine LNG Supply Chain Project is expected in November.

    Denmark has more than 20 LNG-fuelled passenger vessels in service, including 11 ferries, three coast guard boats and one cruise ship. Globally, more than US$1 billion has been committed to LNG-fuelled vessels.

    The only confirmed Canadian projects are three ferries ordered by the Société des traversiers du Québec, Quebec's ferry service.
  6. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    It may be proven that it can work, but working safely is another matter. It's getting better, but not there yet. The main thing is all vehicles with fly-by-wire need a kill switch. An electrical problem could mean a wfo situation and a kill switch that doesn't lock the steering wheel should be a must. But designers would rather add more tv's, and give yet more control to your computer (self parking, auto braking etc) than to give you the control to help yourself in an emergency situation. If I remember correctly, the accident in Cali was in a sub 20k mile car that was 100% dealer maintained. The car I saw burn down, I even have burns on my elbow from trying to break a window and get the kids out, still had paper plates, brand new. When the car caught fire, going 65, windows wouldn't roll down, doors wouldn't unlock, nothing you could do. After the explosion, when I woke up on the far side of the highway, I decided any company that would release trash like that onto the road doesn't need to be in business. Maybe I'm jaded because I watched 4 people die, 3 of them under 6 years old, but that's my opinion.

    That's why I want a trawler with a pair of Gardner's. Reliable and sip fuel. But it does take a while to get anywhere. The older I get, and the more wrecks I survive (I've raced on and off my whole life) the more I can just set back and enjoy the cruise.
  7. CaptCook

    CaptCook New Member

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    That's a nice direction. Do you know of any SFMy retrofitted to LNG to have similar saving? Is there a good network of LNG stations, etc? What are the pros and cons?
  8. CaptCook

    CaptCook New Member

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    I'd totally ignore this accident in Cali. The causes are not even proven beyond a doubt. Some expert believe it's a hoax. I personally didn't replace anything due to that recall (trimming gas pedal, WTH?). Like I said there are lots of car brands with issues. Hybrid and electric vehicles have least of the problems as far as I'm concerned and i can tell you from experience of almost 10 years. All my vehicles are hybrid and electric and I've been only changing oil and tires, the latter once in 2 years. Two of them are actually purchase and driven in Houston if it helps you more.
  9. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I'm not denying that there are way too many issues in most production vehicles. When I mentioned fly by wire, I was thinking of issues I personally had with GM's system. Just about all their cars run it, but there is no way to override it if there is a problem. Wiring is horrid on most cars. I'm glad you have had good luck with your cars, but I have seen and heard too much bad stuff to trust the brand anymore.
  10. oceaneer

    oceaneer Member

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    I thought this was about boats

    Ok Back to boats???
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree, but at the same token the technology is switching over from cars/trucks to boats. Look at diesel engines, a lot of them were derived from trucks and heavy equipment before transferring to the marine industry. Cigarette's line of AMG electric 38'+ raceboats, all of the components were sourced from Mercedes AMG car line....
  12. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Fly by wire is used on many new boats, I seem to recall a thread about a boat getting sunk and damaging a dock because of a faulty controller. Seems like its relevant info that carries over. Something that is problematic in a car seems like it would be a nightmare in a marine environment.
  13. Chapstick

    Chapstick Member

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    Ah, I see!


    Nope, a Lexus ES350.

    I can't find that with google. Links please, or it didn't happen....
  14. Chapstick

    Chapstick Member

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    BMW, Chrysler, Nissan, Porsche, Volkswagen and Audi all cut power to their motors as soon as the brake is pressed. Toyota didn't do this in the past but does now.
  15. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    It was when they first came out, happened on I35W just south of burleson about 7pm. It was all over the local news one day, then gone the next. I was there and know it happened, but when you throw enough money at the press, they will say what you pay them to. Just because there isnt a link on google doesn't mean it didn't happen.
  16. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    If the computer works they may cut power, but if the computer messes up and goes wide open throttle, who says that part will still work? One bad connection and your life is in danger.
  17. Chapstick

    Chapstick Member

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    All a big conspiracy?
    You'll have to accept that a lot of us won't believe you: things don't just disappear off the internet when people want them to (it usually has the opposite effect - see the Streisand Effect)
  18. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Lol, keep thinking that. I like I said, I have scars from it.

    Also, it's small town area. Half the people around here didnt have camera phones at that time. Quite a few, myself included, don't have Facebook or twitter even now.
  19. CaptCook

    CaptCook New Member

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    Please leave the Prius along. Its the best selling car in its class and everything has been fixed. Lets discuss boats. :)
  20. Chapstick

    Chapstick Member

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    You can say this about anything: "One bad <insert noun of your choice here> and your life is in danger."

    Fly by wire has been around since the 70s. It's probably present in some form in every new car and aircraft made today. There's no reason to think it's unsuitable for boats.