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Wavepiercers, Trimarans, SWATH and such...

Discussion in 'General Catamaran Discussion' started by YachtForums, Jun 27, 2004.

  1. Ju52

    Ju52 Senior Member

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    another low wash from Austria for Venice

    I will give you this link for other low wash developments.

    http://www.alsphere.at

    It's from Austria but in English.
    The picture is from this web site ... and shows the low waves behind the boat at 18kn.

    Attached Files:

  2. MikeElliston

    MikeElliston New Member

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    some more wave-piercing multi-hulls,
    Water Wizards, a 50 ft power cat designed by Tim Kernan of Kernan Yacht
    Design (formerly Waterplane), used as a photography/filming platform for yacht races, very long distance capable, with barely any wake.
    http://oceanfilmboat.com/

    Tim is also working with the new "M-hulls" more information and images can be found at his website.
    http://www.waterplane.com/
  3. tartanski

    tartanski Member

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    New Ground effect craft

    Check this out,

    http://www.gizmag.co.uk/go/6835/

    Solution seem a bit complex but I'd love to experience the ride with thos big shock absorbers.

    No photos actually fully in ground effect so I'm wondering if it just operated with ground effect assistance.
  4. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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  5. tartanski

    tartanski Member

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  6. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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  7. catmando

    catmando Senior Member

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  8. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    Triple Hulls

    As our call sign, tri - star; - suggests:
    We are involved in the design and engineering of vessels with TRIPLE HULLS.

    At the moment: We can not send you any pretty
    pictures of our gorgeous looking protypes.
    As so much of what we are doing now is
    proprietary.

    Having designed and built:- monohulls, cats and tris....and as I'm on a short list of people that have operated triple hulled craft beyond 60 knots.....
    Perhaps; it is appropriate, that I put some real world experience forward ?

    First, you will notice, I avoid the word trimaran.
    As does the British Navy.
    They prefer the term " stabilised monohull ". Which is possibly accurate, but lacks a certain poetic flair.
    Currantly with most sailing trimarans - all the hulls are close to the SAME length.
    For very sound reasons. Like needing to resist pitch
    poling, in the diagonal - caused by the heeling force of the sails.

    Typicaly, a triple hulled vessel, UNDER POWER, has much less of these forces to contend with.
    No SAILS......
    So the outer hulls can be significantly shorter.
    In effect: this is a distinctly, different craft, in many ways - from what is commonly referred to as a trimaran.
    So I have been searching for a different name, for this new type of vessel.
    Serious suggestions are welcome.

    Now to more critical concerns:

    There have been disasterous vessels created of all types. Also, within specific parameters, successful ones as well.
    With strong evangelists for; single, double or triple hulled craft.
    Let us not go into this too much, right now......
    Please !! I'ved heard it all....many times....

    Suffice to say:
    Personaly, I have found that a WELL DESIGNED triple hulled vessel has merit.
    Specificaly in terms of:
    FUEL EFFICIENCY and SEAKEEPING.

    If you question the above - please pause for a moment - and consider why the the US Navy, is presently engaged in a billzillon dollar project involving triple hulled ships ?!

    Cheers all !
  9. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Good points tri - star. The design of White Rabbit really intrigued me. I was hoping to see some reports on how well that yacht worked out in the real world. But have not seen a peep after the initial fanfare. Heard any scuttlebutt?

    Kelly
  10. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    In sailing there are now many trimarans that are actually sailing on the "outrigger" hull, like this one from Marc Lombard; http://www.oceanlakemarine.com/

    Some trimarans are instead called Wavepiercers and are almost catamarans with a center hull, and then there are the ones with just smaller and more narrow side hulls aft, like stabilized monohulls.

    But I still like to call all of them trimarans, or perhaps just multihulls...?
  11. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    Tri Hulls.....

    To KCook:

    I will give you pertinent data when it's available.
    However, there is difinately...an interesting LACK of
    reporting......
    Including. info. that I know will excite interest - that
    I'm not at liberty to release, without upsetting the
    people I'm involved with.
    As far as the big Australian yards go, their retinence,
    one can conclud - is related to the fact that they are
    " imbedded " into the US, Littoral Combat Ship program.

    To AMG:
    I agree with all that you say and personaly like the
    word Trimaran.
    It certainly flows better than the term,
    " stabilized mono".
    However, when reliable data does finaly surface re:
    POWERED TRI - HULLS, I predict, that the performance
    profiles seen, will demand different terminology.

    Cheers All !
  12. Innomare

    Innomare Senior Member

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    Hydroptere

    Tri-Star,

    you must be happy to hear that a trimaran is a very serious contender to be the first to break the 50 knot barrier (average on 500 m) for sail-powered vehicles. It's the fastest sailing boat around now for sure.

    It does have some foils under the waterline to help though. Have a look at www.hydroptere.com. Some cool videos of speeding in heavy seas.

    Everyone's going for that 50 knot barrier (in windsurfing, kiteboarding and sailing) and 2007 may just be the year that we break it.
    For the interested, the record is now in the hands of the windsurfers at 48 knots and a little something. But the kiters haven't been around for long and are approaching fast...

    Bruno

    Attached Files:

  13. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    50 Knots !?

    Great graphic Innomare:

    I will admit to perhap; a slight basis and regard
    for tri - hulls, that may seem to verge on the
    evengelical at times.

    However, I will stray into the enemy camp - now
    and again.
    As with Windsurfers. In '83 I made a few wing sails
    for 'surfers. Then the record stood at less than
    30 knots - and I predicted this speed could be attained
    by a Windsurfer with a wing sail. - And it was.
    Unfortuneatly, NOT with one of the sails made by me....
    Could not find a sponser, with vision, in time... O well...

    It is interesting, that much, that was true then - still
    applies now.
    So I will make another prediction - that the 'boarders
    will continue to have the edge in these speed trials.

    We must be ruthless, on occasion - and put aside
    inclinations - towards any particular hull form.

    If the trials were over geater distances, futher off shore.
    A tri - with appendages - is my first choice.
    However, if a tri - hull is like a Steeple Chase race horse.
    A Windsurfer is closer to being a Quarter horse.
    And has the advantage. In what amounts to more of
    a drag race than most other sail boat races.

    It's the simplicity of the boarder's rig that is the key.
    As in:
    Having NO rudder. With often, just ONE foil below decks
    and minimal rigging.
    Also consider, the elegant economy, of forcing the
    pilot to function as PART of said, rigging. As they
    attempt to steer - less than 12 square inches
    of wetted surface - in a straight line!

    Also, aerodynamicaly, the surfer presents, very minimal
    frontal area to the wind. Then there's the INHERENT
    reliability - of a minimum of componants.

    This is hard to beat.

    Especialy, as your TRI - FOILER gains in complexity and
    acquires more and more accumulated drag, the harder it
    attempts to exceed 50 knots.
    At the moment, the challange for lifting foil boats, does not
    seem so much about going fast, as:
    Keeping all the little bits and pieces attached to each other!

    Well...I wish them all luck!
    It takes courage and determination to do what they are
    doing. So God speed.

    Cheers !
  14. YachtForum

    YachtForum YachtForums Publisher

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    After getting started at 4:00 AM and now at the end of a long first day of the Miami Show, I'd like to formulate something remotely coherent, but I'm too tired to type. If you will forgive me for being brief, and slightly tongue in cheek, there's a BIG difference between military protocol and luxury yacht accommodations! Just thought we should keep this in mind while discussing the merits of trimarans. Also, don't forget slip space! ;)

    Night all! Catch ya after the show.

    Carl
  15. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    So whatever happened to...

    military hydrofoils?
    Late '70s-early '80s, out fishing off Marathon ( Fla Keys) on the bay side, summertime.
    Off in the distance is this pretty danged large ( 100+ ft.), and obviously Naval vessel, making serious speed. I mean, she is GONE in a matter of a few minutes, over the horizon. Stacks looked like gas turbine-powered.

    Any info about then, as well as why currently, they have "faded away"?
  16. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    TRI HULLS...hydrofoils

    To C.Camper:

    Re: "....accomodations...."
    Yes we agree; if having the maximum amount of
    Staterooms possible - is the biggest concern - then
    a high performance, muti - hull is possibly, not the
    best choice.

    Also, as Navies have been known to stack personal
    like cordwood......
    - And max. pursuit speed, in ALL weathers is required,
    it's just possible, that a Naval tactition might not worry
    to much about the Captain losing a little cabin space....

    Re: "....slip space...."

    We realize that you were tired and proberly did not have
    the time to read my submission carefully.....
    In which I detail, at some length, as to why I do not
    refer to our POWER TRI - HULL vessels as trimarans.
    Partly, because, people will tend to make the same
    presumption that you just did.

    To repeat:
    As there are NO SAILS - a triple hulled vessel under
    power, does not have to contend with the large
    heeling forces, as can be generated - by billowing
    clouds of canvas.

    Therefore; as a high resistance to heeling is not
    required with a Power Tri, the outer hulls can be a lot
    shorter. Also EXCESSIVE BEAM is no longer of any
    performance advantage.......
    So concerns about getting into slips - with our designs
    - and others, HAVE DIMINISHED.

    Also, tis folly, to so quickly brush off, the Billion or so
    Pounds the British have spent on a "stabilized monohull".
    Or the many, Billions of US dollars, presently being
    spent on high speed ships. Some with semi - planing
    hulls (?) - and some in a tri - hull configuration.

    What IS it?! That these Navies know?
    That the marine world, in general, is not yet aware of....

    To Loren Schweizer:

    Re: Military HYDROFOILS.
    At one time, CANADA possessed the worlds fastest
    Destroyer. 60 knots or so....With hydrofoils. Cost about:
    $ 6 Million. Sold to the US Navy.

    You might wonder why, BOTH, civilian and military
    hydrofoils have faded quietly from sight....
    One possibility is: the ALL or NOTHING aspect, of
    hypercritical foils.
    i.e.
    I belive there was a Hydrofoil Ferry, in service,
    in Japan.
    That fell forward. When it abruptly lost lift....and came
    to a crash stop.
    I was told, that a Grandmother died instantly.
    Foils have a certain magic - however.....

    All for now, chaps!
    Obviously, I have had too much time on my hands
    - waiting for clients to make up their minds.
    However, this just changed and I will be busy in design
    mode for the next little while.

    Later.....
  17. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Err, I think this brings up a point. Most, if not all, exotic or very high performance hull designs are optimised for a very narrow speed range. Compared to conventional hulls. With these new stabilized monohulls, or tri-hulls, or whatever, I wonder if this operational limitation still applies? I'm not arguing that it does, but just wondering out loud.

    Kelly
  18. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I think I have the answer to this. Most people know, since decades, that multihulls has many advantages over monohulls. However they LOOK DIFFERENT and this is where a Navy has no objections. Very few trimaran yachts today are truly good looking and I think most yacht buyers want to hear that they have a beautiful yacht!

    When we can come up with designs that are appealing in itself, not just in performance, then I think trimarans will become much more appreciated.
  19. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Good point by Lars. I would add that size is an important factor as well. Very, very hard to make an attractive 40' tri-hull. White Rabbit is an exception, but also a pretty large yacht. It does puzzle me that so few megayachts are multi-hull.

    Kelly
  20. tri - star

    tri - star New Member

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    To AMG and Kcook:

    Gentlemen you must be exceptionaly intelligent and
    sophisticated people.
    - Because you so often agree with me!
    i.e.
    AMG, "....trimarans will become much more appreciated."
    Kcook, "....hard to make an attractive 40ft. tri - hull."
    "....White Rabbit is an exception."
    Although, it's proving to be far easier, to achieve positive
    aesthetic results with our tri - hulls than cats. Even in the
    shorter lengths......
    As I will demonstrate, once my associates have resolved
    our immediate, proprietry and financial concerns.

    After several long years of R & D - I'm looking forward to
    our " Show and Tell ".

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