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Viking 48 vs Cabo 48

Discussion in 'General Sportfish Discussion' started by LA BUC, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    CaptJ- You are way out of your depth here so just admit it.

    I know well the described procedure for Calibrating the Dip Stick. Just how many boats can you actually drain the sump by using the Drain Plug on?

    The small boat builders you refer in your posts would in my opinion and experience be more likely to have to call in outsiders to do the engineering for install and alignment etc than the bigger ones. A lot of the bigger ones have come to build yachts from building ships where the whole structure and procedures differ from what you are used to with you little fishing boats yet you are pouring out info like it applies to ALL CAT product in all yachts.

    Where do you get this odd notion that CAT has different DEO for different hemispheres?

    There are different grades of multi Grade oil the one you used depends upon the ambient temperature where the engine is operating. CAT only specify a monograde oil for the 3116 and 3126 Marine Engines with mechanical unit injectors. It is available as a 30 or 40 Wt Oil and is not to be used in any other engines. It is to be used where the engines use a closed loop crankcase ventilation system.

    Here is the CAT Literature about your "special" Oil.

    Attached Files:

  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    This is a yacht forum and this post applies to sportfish. ALA Viking vs. Cabo, that is the subject and hand that is what I am talking about. I am not talking about SHIP builders such as Feadship and others. We are talking about yachts here not even megayachts in this post, this is Yacht Forum. Ship builders may very well install their own engines. I know for a fact that Cabo and Viking DO NOT, which are the two yachts this post is talking about......unless I missed the subject line.

    Here is a list of the different DEO oil for different area's straight from the CAT website. Why is it that, you can never be wrong? Don't insult me with your lack of intelligance and lack of an open mind. Obviously you're very knowlegable about certain areas you are knowlegable, however your knowledge obviously doesn't pertain to North America or other areas. I'm not pulling stuff out of thin air.......Brazil has their own oil, Egypt and Saudi Arabia have their own, as does North America.

    http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=109560&x=7

    Fluid Data sheets

    Oils

    Title
    Size

    » • Data Sheet: Cat® DEO-ULS™ - PEHJ0159 215k
    » • How to Take a Good Oil Sample - PEHP6001 281k
    » • Cat® DEO (Diesel Engine Oil for Western Hemisphere excluding Brazil) - PEHJ0059 104k
    » • Cat DEO (Worldwide except North America, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Brazil) - PEHJ0021-04 620k
    » • Cat® Artic DEOTM SYN - PEHJ0008 75k
    » • Cat SAEO (Special Application Engine Oil) - PEHP9516 165k
    » • Cat DEO SYN - PEHP7062 65k
    » • Cat DEO (Brazil Only) - PEHJ0072-02 841k
    » • Cat DEO (Egypt & Saudi Arabia) - PEHJ0091-01 200k
    » • Cat® NGEO EL350 (Natural Gas Engine Oil) - PEHJ0006-01 251k
    » • Data Sheet: Cat® TDTO™ (Transmission /DriveTrain Oil) (PDF 363 KB) - PEHP7506 363k
    » • Cat TDTO-TMS - PEHP8035 238k
    » • Cat® Arctic TDTOTM - PEHJ0007 194k
    » • Final Drive and Axle Oil Synthetic (FDAO Syn) - PEH9570 107k
    » • Data Sheet: Cat® FDAO™ (Final Drive Axle Oil) (PDF 222 KB) - PEHP9530 848k
    » • Data Sheet: Gear Oil (PDF 417 KB) - PEHP7508 471k
    » • Cat® SYNTHETIC GO - PEHJ0030 216k
  3. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    K1W1: "Just how many boats can you actually drain the sump by using the Drain Plug on?"
    A yard once did that to me. It happened just after I'd made the engine room spotless. When I came back on board there was oil EVERYWHERE.:eek: Probably the closest I came to committing murder that year.
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    I am talking about the machinery installed on Yachts.

    Yes and it is for sale on the world market by the barrel.

    CAT have a DEO Specification. If the Oil you want to use meets that specification then it is OK to use it.

    There are subtle differences in the raw product that the Lube Oils are refined from all over the world. This is where some small variances come from in the finished product available in various markets.

    If you take the time to open some of those links you posted you will se that the Engine Oils that meet the current CAT Spec of ECF 1 are all very close to being the same.

    The different zones is a marketing tool as CAT Protect their dealers areas with great zeal.
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Capt J- I would be happy to put my Commercial Engineering qualifications and 30 yrs experience against yours any day.

    You are the one that lacks the open mind here pal. You say you done 100's of startups.

    What has your actual participation been during these facets of delivery?

    You made a statement in Post No 8 where you gave a blanket statement that CAT use a break in Oil- You didn't say it was limited to any particular engine size which you now seem to be trying to indicate by your continued reference to these small boats.

    This is the sort of comment that seems to pepper your posts where you generalize and this can be very mis leading to those who don't have the experience to know that this is not completely true.

    I believe that most people come here looking for accurate information not generalizations and inaccurate outbursts claiming un substantiated statements trying to be passed off as facts.

    I have had a bit more time to look at that link you posted and have not managed to find anything that is referred to as Break In Oil.

    I asked for you to provide a link to this before and all I got was the Oil for which the Spec sheet has been posted above.

    Oh and by the way I am sure there are a few Feadship and other large yacht owners who would like to think they have fine quality yachts even if they are over 200 ft. Is there something in the Forum rules that prohibits the discussion of yachts of this size (as according to you they aren't yachts) that I have missed in the last few years?
  6. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Hi guys. Sorry to butt in here but I wanted to thank both K1W1 and CaptJ for teaching me a few things over the past several months. You're both smart guys. I also wanted to mention that you seem to be fighting for fighting's sake and have lost the direction of this thread.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I was the Captain running the vessel and working directly with the technician.

    Cat installs a lighter weight oil in new pleasure craft engines and requires the first oil change at 50hrs. According to several CAT reps, it depends on the area/climate on which break-in oil is installed by the installing dealer. In warm climates I was told the 30W special application. In Northern (colder) climates....I was told it was a 5w30. This would be a dealer only memo, not something you would find on the website. The special app. oil has special detergants and such to help with ring wear and other facets of break-in, if you read the specs of it. These smaller boats usually have more HP then a 200 ft. feadship which runs at displacement speed......... a 52' Cabo can be equipped with C30 cats, 1550hp each.

    Scribing the dipstick is very easy in a yacht on a new install considering the motor has no oil in it when it is installed, they just add and mark the stick. BUT, you can still yank the drain plug on a yacht and not make a mess if you pump out all of the oil first, then when you yank the drain plug there should only be a 1/2 gallon +/- left in the oil pan depending on oil pan capacity which should be easily caught with some sort of drain pan. I'd rather make a small mess and have a properly marked dipstick, then a guess-timation stick.

    I would think that someone would want their 200 foot Feadship referred to as a Megayacht and not just a lowly yacht. An owner of a 200 foot Feadship is welcome to post on Yacht Forums. The difference is, this particular post is referring to a Viking and a Cabo, not a Feadship nor any other type or brand of yacht.
  8. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I don't have an opinion about either of these boats.

    I do however have an opinion and have posted repeatedly about your misleading blanket statements where you give information that you say corresponds to all CAT Marine Engines.

    You posted about this break in oil and provided a part Number, I provided the spec sheet in this post that says plainly it is indeed a special application oil and it is only used for two engine groups. It is not used as a break in oil specifically but for normal day to day operations.

    It may interest you to know that I have asked on a number of occasions when ordering new Caterpillar engines for them to be setup to run on mono grade lube oil. This has always been declined and a threat to in validate the warranty given if mono grade is used during the warranty period.

    Now when asked again for the info on the Oil you say you know so much about you try to hide behind the dealer secrecy. As for being a dealer only memo- I would think if a special oil was indeed needed at start up then it would be needed again when the engines are rebuilt so it would be pretty much common knowledge amongst the mechanics who rebuild these engines.

    If you take the time to read some of the plethora of information that is available on the CAT Website where your link leads to you will see that there are various multi grade oils available which one is used depends upon the ambient temperature where the equipment is operating- I posted this about the multi grade oils above but I guess you didn't have the time to look and learn.
  9. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    CAPTJ- In case you are busy and don't have time to search all the links at the site just have a look at this one:

    • Cat® DEO (Diesel Engine Oil for Western Hemisphere excluding Brazil) - PEHJ0059 104k

    You will see at the first bold type heading on Page 1 that this is used as standard factory fill for CAT Machines.

    I have also had this confirmed by a fairly senior CAT Guy who told me the story of Break in Oil is a tale which has been around for years but has no substance to it.

    The link applies to Oils in your geographical area so there is no confusion that elsewhere we have different Lube Oils.
  10. VikHatBer

    VikHatBer New Member

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    Kiwi and Captain J go at it again. Great fun to watch the captain versus the technician. Our former fish catcher and current harbor queen is a 53' Viking 1995 w/ 820 MANs. "Foxy Lady" cruises at 25 knots, 2000 RPM, with a fuel burn slightly under 70 gallons an hour. Our MANs are quieter than anything comparable made in America, especially MTU's and obviously quieter than older Detroits.

    Captain J, I honestly don't know what you mean by black smoke of any kind. That usually indicates a blown turbo, unless you mean smoke from starting a cold motor. Also, explain what you mean by MANs scaring fish away! I'm sure you have scientific data to back that up. We have had our boat since 2001, and have had only minor engine trouble. We bought the boat with rebuilt MANs with 100+/- hours on each, and have put about 1,000 hours on 'em since.
  11. strat57

    strat57 Member

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    Capt J..... I certainly hate to butt into a old thread where I have little interest. But I do try to read most posts when I find the time. As someone pointed out there is always something to be learned.

    In this case it pertains to what may be misinformation you are providing to the members of this forum.

    #1- There is no such CAT dealer as "Ringhaven CAT"! There was a dealership in Tampa FL. by the name of Ringhaver CAT. They were owned by the late L.C. Ringhaver which opened Ring Power in St Augustine FL. way back in the early 60's. (They began as a marine engine-only distributor) Within a year or so of opening they became a full service CAT dealer and moved their shop to Jacksonville Florida while keeping their "headquarters" in St. Augustine.

    "Ringhaver CAT" (who you might be referring to) was a full service CAT dealer located in Tampa FL. (mostly supplying heavy construction equipment and CAT service to the west coast of Florida) Ring Power now has like 19 locations here in Florida alone not to mention locations in several other states.

    Anyway, in the mid 70's his sons took over the business and in 2004 merged both the Ringhaver CAT dealerships and Ring Power distributorship under one large umbrella now known as Ring Power. Over the course of time they have become one of the largest factory distributors in the world. All of this can be verified via the web also.

    #2 After reading your posts further I spent a little "phone time" this morning and contacted several CAT dealers inquiring about your "dealer only" statement regarding "break-in oil" and just where CAT stands on this. Especially in lou of the warranty requirements on CAT marine engines being installed in both factory and custom built yachts.

    Sorry to say no one can confirm your statement. But I'll keep plugging away until I feel confident with the information I'm receiving to either dispel or confirm your statement. Heck, I couldn't even find anything on boatdiesel. com regarding this though.

    My other issue is with your statement that the CAT dealer is doing the engine installations for Hatteras/Cabo.... It is my understanding that the engines are in fact installed by workers for the boat manufacturer under the supervision of CAT certified personnel. Not by Ring Power Inc. or "Ringhaven CAT" as you stated. I'm currently waiting on further information from Hatteras regarding your statement.

    It shocks me though you would make such blanket statements regarding issues that either your information is old and outdated, or you apparently know little about. I will in the future read your posts with a bit of scepticism especially after you posted in another thread regarding engine/fuel efficiency vs. fuel economy. You also posted in another thread regarding low engine operating temperatures which seems to be another one of those "magical" situations you've experienced and posted about. Not to mention the "100's or 1000's" of this or that only you've experienced.

    You're either quite the "old salt" and experienced some unique situations or well versed in the art of embellishment. Please.... if you have facts or knowledge to share with us at least make sure it can be substantiated and with ease. Otherwise your creditability is completely shot in the foot so to speak. I'm not posting this to anger or disrespect you, but sharing your knowledge and then apparently ad-libbing to suite your needs certainly is beneath you.

    BTW.... you list Belize as your "home port" yet you always mention "that's how it is here in the states". Are you currently residing and working in the U.S.?
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    #1- Yes Ringhaver cat, AKA Ring Power is the same thing. Just like BK is known by everyone as Burger King. However thinking about it, Gregory Poole is also a dealer that does Hatteras depending on who is available to do the install at the time, I think Gregory Poole does most of them now, and Ring Power a lesser degree. When they had problems with the first 150 sets of C32's, I saw Gregory Poole send two trucks down to Fort Lauderdale and rebuild both sets in both new Hatteras. If they didn't install them, then why didn't Pantropic (the local dealer) do the rebuilds.

    #2. I was told by several top sources at Cabo, Hatteras, the installing CAT dealer for Cabo, and another CAT higher up that they indeed use a lighter oil for the initial oil fill. Would you like to go straight to the source? I have both the Sr. Construction manager of Hatteras or the Project Manager of Cabo's cell #'s. Brunswick does not want to assume any liability, nor are they going to have their factory workers trained by MAN, CAT, and DD/MTU to install 150 +/- sets of engines a year from the various manufacturers. They have the Engine companies dealer install them and then they have 0 liability if there is a major problem, no questions asked. If it wasn't installed correctly, the warranty of the engine still falls under the engine manufacturer since a dealer installed it. Are you saying that the dealer sends a master technician to stand their and Supervise or watch them install the engine????? That makes no sense, because if they're going to get paid to supervise then they might as well do the work.

    If a question could be substantiated with ease, then nobody would be asking the question here.

    As for the 100's or 1000's or whatever you're talking about, let me just say this, here are a sample of the engines I've run in yachts:
    DD- 6v53's, 6-71,6-92,8v71, 8v92, 12v71, 12v92's, 16v2000's, series60's
    Yanmar- 175hp, 240hp, 550hp
    Cummins, 6BT, 6BTA's, 555's, 540hp, 450hp, 480hp, 660? hp forgot the designation
    CAT- 3208, 3116,3126, 3196, 3406, 3412, c7's, c9's, c12's, c18's, c30's, c32
    MAN- 820's, 900's, 1050's, 1300's, 1100's both common rail and not
    MTU 12v183's, Gardeners, John Deere's, Perkins, Lehmans, Hino and other's I've forgotten about. I also do 15,000 nautical miles in deliveries every year for the past 5 years + on many different yachts.

    I lived in Belize from Jan-July 2005. I have lived before that and after that in Fort Lauderdale, FL. I just never got around to changing it. Would you like my Social Security # while you're at it? What difference does where I live make?
  13. strat57

    strat57 Member

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    No need for the S.S.#..... but if you'd like to PM me the corporate/office phone numbers along with the names of your contacts I'll gladly have a conference call or two along with you!

    It would be nice to clear this up for all who may have questions regarding both the engine installations as well as this required CAT "break-in" oil you mention regarding all CAT engines. Obviously it will benefit not just current owners or potential customers but several CAT dealers also.

    Hopefully we'll get those in the "know" from both CAT and Brunswick to offer up an official memo, letter or press release for the public. I look forward to getting to the bottom of this.....
  14. Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

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    I do not have not horse in this race- but let me point out that sportfishers and power yachts tend to run in different circles, as this thread is clearly showing. What applies to one does not apply to the other in many circumstances, even if the engines are identical. Technicians and captains have a propensity to disagree, this is obvious- let it slide folks.
    Cabo's tend to pound in a head sea and be pushed around in a following sea- and Vikings tend to take a bit of green water from time to time. MAN's smoke and blow up- Cat's have had their share if problems, and MTU's are expensive. All of these issues could be argued until everyone is blue in the face without a conclusion that satisfies anyone. Viking has not made a 47 in quite some time BTW.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have no interest wasting my time with a conference call with you on information I have already gotten from these people over the years. I spent a week at the Hatteras factory. But I will send you an e-mail with phone numbers when I get a chance over the next day or two and you can call if that suits you.

    Who installed the engines or what CAT oil they use at the initial oil fill does not effect or concern current or future owners as long as the engines are installed properly and covered under CATs warranty. Current owners or future owners would use the normal CAT DEO from their first oil change on out. Neither CAT nor Brunswick is going to waste their time to give you an "official" memo, letter or press release. It is irrelevent to current or future owners as the warranty is in effect through a dealer when they need it. Who made the lugnuts on your car is ir-relevant as long as Ford (for example) covers them if they are defective and you can buy them from the Ford dealer.
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Just as they would be using it right from the get go.


    This link is to an official CAT Spec Sheet PEHJ 0059, It is as official as you can get as it is published by CAT themselves.

    http://www.pdfdownload.org/pdf2html...cda/files/199221/7/pehj0059-02.pdf&images=yes

    This spec sheet was originally listed in Post 22 of this thread by Capt J who obviously didn't read the info he posted links to earlier.

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/68270-post22.html

    It's existence and the data it contains referring to it being used as Initial Fill Oil was also posted here.

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/68348-post29.html
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It says error and does not display the page when I try to go to the first link
  18. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    I tried it before I posted it and it worked, I apologize if it doesn't work for others trying to load it.

    If you ( Capt J) go back to the links you posted in Post No 22 of this thread and look for the third or fourth one down that has PEHJ 0059 in it's title you can find the same document.

    Alternatively PM me with an e mail addy and I would be happy to send you the file as a PDF (It is too big to post here)