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VIDEO - Sunk Bertram Discussion

Discussion in 'Bertram Yacht' started by YachtForums, Jan 15, 2010.

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  1. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Please explain the basis for your conclusion.
  2. capitano_65

    capitano_65 Member

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    Good Ridance....Adios muchacho...vaya con dios
  3. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    Tabbing POPped off the hull.

    1) no white marks in the V of the joint except at top edge.
    2) clean delamination of 1708 tabbing
    3) If forward tabbing broke loose in similar fashion....

    This thing came apart from the inside out....

    Should have made a fair amount of noise as it was happening - what was the capitan and mate up to?

    Still can't explain the Transom.....
  4. alacrity

    alacrity New Member

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    nothing on the litigation front

    just thought that i would report that there have been no further documents filed in the litigation. the time for bertram and MM to respond to the amended complaint came and went (by a couple of weeks). this leads me to believe that the parties have agreed to extend the time for the defendants to respond, which often is an indication that they are talking/negotiating.
  5. asearay4you

    asearay4you New Member

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    Looks to me like Bertram vacumed all the resin out in manufacturing.
  6. curtarmy

    curtarmy New Member

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    With regard to the transom;

    In the video, I see the following:
    1. Through the strbd hawse hole cutout, also behind the hatch, and a few other views, both cockpit sidewall fiberglass panels inside the cockpit near where the stern cleats are/were can be seen and seem to be in great condition. Indicating that maybe the high mounted horizontal cleats are still intact.
    2. Starboard stern hawse hole cutout is clear and intact. Outer fiberglass and hawse hole trim are gone.
    3. Starboard portion of transom from transom door latch side jam to starboard stern corner is basically intact (minus fiberglass skin). Hawse hole cutout is in this portion of the transom.
    4. Transom door and transom all the way to the port side is basically gone. (couple small pieces remain in the lower port corner).
    5. The entire length of the cockpit floor where it met the inside of the transom is sheared in a very straight line. Indicating probable separation via forces from the inside of the cockpit. (As opposed to the transom being pushed inward.
    6. The entire length of the bottom where it met the transom show the effects of pressure from the inside but not as clean and complete as the cockpit floor. This separation could have occurred at different times.
    7. Port corner shows what appears to be fracturing of the structure and fiberglass from the transom being pushed outward.

    My opinion is that there is no way this vessel lost most of her transom by an attempt to attach to the cleats or a rope through the hawse holes. Cleats have a large backup plate under the fiberglass which surely would have destroyed enough of the cockpit inner skin to see it in the video. And if the strbd cleat had come lose, it would have surely taken out the strbd hawse hole.

    For the conspirators and co-conspirators, I can see a rope through the port hawse hole around the inside of the transom and out under the transom door tied in a loop and a gently tug from a couple thousand horsepower prop power and away goes the name!

    All I can really see is, the water from over the bridge, through the exposed stem and fore deck, up the stairway, through the galley, through the salon and out the door and window, and blowing the transom loose. (Remember the rest of the boat indicates that there is a high probability that the cockpit floor to transom bond might not have full strength, therefore this transom may really only be held tightly at the port side).

    It appears that the separation of the transom from the bottom may not have occurred at the same time, So it is possible that the transom, though effectively severed from the boat, may have returned to its normal position and remained there, because of the pressure from the outside water and the minor part that was still attached to the bottom or possibly some portion of the port side, for a while. This could explain why the survivors indicated that the transom was intact, when in fact it was held in place by a few remaining inches of bonded fiberglass and water pressure. The buoyancy of the transom may have been enough to pull it away from the boat as it sank.

    OR a conspiracy OR the mighty currents may have torn loose an already severely compromised transom.
  7. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    Makes Sense - Malicious or not.


    This is an interesting theory given the video....
  8. Bluefin

    Bluefin New Member

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    It seems the boat has moved. The divers couldn't find it and will look again soon. Interesting. This should evoke some great theories.
  9. CTdave

    CTdave Senior Member

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    Ok.........but the door and window look to be in place and just fine.

    Oh yeah, the Capt reported that the transom was in tack when they went into the water. There would be absolutely no reason why he would have lied about that.
    Look at the rest of the evidence. Prop marks in a straight line leading past the bow, strutt ripped back & the clean, rear/upward break where the transom came off.
    The evidence clearly shows every indication that it was being dragged. In my opinion, by someone who whould never want this boat to be found.
  10. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    Just curious. Since there is no fraudulent? insurance recovery here. Why would someone be intersted in "hiding" the boat. Seems to me the owner wants it around to prove manufacturing defect, and Bertram wants it around to prove accidental sinking.
  11. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Plus, according to Bluefin, the Bert is still on the move and I suspect leaving a debri field as it goes along breaking up.
  12. Adad

    Adad New Member

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    I was wondering if anyone can tell if the boat is facing in the direction of the prevailing current by the lines in the sand around the boat? Just curious
  13. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Would you expect the current effect to leave this boat stern to, broadside or bow to the current given it's shape, appendages and damages?
  14. Henning

    Henning Senior Member

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    Some people watch too much TV...
  15. curtarmy

    curtarmy New Member

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    Two questions; alright three;

    Did anyone see evidence of any current in the video?

    Also, in the stills in the previous thread, in the close ups of the strbd rudder post, was that part of the strbd trim tab and cylinder? Almost had to be in the down position before it was torn out! Port side trim tab seems to be up in the video....maybe. Trim tabs down in a following sea? Or is this just the result of the trim tab cylinders being attached to the transom?
  16. btyson

    btyson Member

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    sunk Bertram education

    Thanks to all for the education in yacht design,construction, and reputations of builders. What a cautionary tale this is to those of us who are considering moving from smaller boats to the "yachting life". I will be in the market for a yacht of this size in a few years and undoubtably it will be used. I would like someone to assure me of two things:
    1) utilizing a reputable inspector will increase the odds that a boat is not a lemon waiting for a disaster to strike.
    2) I have allways feared that my familly might be asleep and the hull opens up causing the boat to sink so fast that there is no time to escape despite high water alarms. Unfounded, right??

    Thanks.
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    The prevailing current in that area is s/w about 1.5kts. However there was considerable current about a week before the video was taken as storms moved through. Using trim tabs in a following sea is not unusual to counter bow rise. Tab position would certainly change as the boat bounced across the bottom.
  18. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Boats are dangerous. Almost anything fun is dangerous or illegal. If you take proper precautions you minimize your risks, and a good survey is a good place to start. Odds are you're taking a much bigger risk each time you get into your car.
  19. Adad

    Adad New Member

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    Looks like the current is either coming from the starboard or port.

    Attached Files:

  20. SandEngXp

    SandEngXp New Member

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    I would say water is dangerous. Everything else I agree with. Personally I have been 'spit-out' 3 times I know of - 2 due to my own stupidy or lack of proper caution.

    btyson - Always get a Survey prior to purchase especially if you are novice and/or over 36 feet +/-.