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US tonnage survey

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Capt Bill11, Dec 4, 2019.

  1. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    Any recommendations for someone to do a tonnage survey for US documentation that doesn’t charge an arm and a leg?

    Thanks in advance.
  2. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    In the Ft. Lauderdale area.
  3. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    How large you looking at? Mfg specs are pretty darn close. Under a few hundred tonnes can be approximate for a normal paper chase. Some good formulas on the web for that.
    Unless you trying to stay under a class (exact to the volume) these should do.
    Also, What class or area tonnage number are you trying to achieve? There are a few for the international traveler.
    For simple U S Documentation, go by the BlueBook values.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I'm sure he's talking about a vessel for which Simplified Measurement can not be used and it must be Convention measurement.
  5. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Typing with a South Ga Swamp Draw, I was also asking what class values he was trying to achieve.
    Skippy Bill11 has been around for a while but I did not think he pushed anything that large.
    His line was for US documentation. Simple volume measurements should work but I'm open to learn.
    Look forward to read what adventures he is into with this..
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    5. MEASUREMENT SYSTEM APPLICABILITY A vessel is eligible to be measured under the Simplified measurement system if it is either: 1) under 79 feet in length; or 2) a non-self-propelled or recreational vessel. Some vessels that are 79 feet or over in length may also require measurement under the Convention measurement system. This includes vessels that engage on foreign voyages, as well as recreational vessels that engage on voyages outside the Great Lakes and have keel laid dates after December 31, 1985. The Convention measurement system does not apply to vessels less than 79 feet in length, whereas vessels of any length can be measured under the Standard and Dual systems. For complete requirements on tonnage measurement system applicability, refer to Navigation and Vessel Circular (NVIC) 11-93, Applicability of Tonnage Measurement Systems to U.S. Flag Vessels.

    6. MEASUREMENT SYSTEM HEIRARCHY For most vessels 79 feet and over in length, the Convention system is the primary tonnage measurement system under the law in the United States. However, law permits vessels to also be measured under the “optional” Regulatory system regardless of length, if requested by the vessel owner, for purposes of applying domestic laws in effect prior to July 19, 1994. For vessels less than 79 feet in length, the Regulatory system is used in all cases.

    And here is the Navigation and Vessel Circular,

    https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/DCO Documents/5p/5ps/NVIC/1993/CH-3_11-93.pdf

    Now, as to someone to do it reasonably, I don't even know what that is, but I know Jonathan Howe does tonnage surveys and I'd be surprised if Malcolm Elliott doesnt.
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Anything over 79 feet can get into the requirements if it travels to foreign waters and fits certain other requirements.
  8. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Looking forward to read what adventures he is into did not require a sermon and scripture.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You wanted an answer to your question to know why simplified measurement would not be acceptable. I answered and provided detailed information on the rules.
  10. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    The documentation people are saying they have been told that in order for the new US documentation to be issued the boat must have a new tonnage measurement survey.

    It was foreign flag previously and is being re-flagged US.

    And yes it’s due to its length apparently.
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Try Malcom Elliot with Florida Nautical surveyors. BUT, the easiest is to contact the yacht manufacturer as they most likely already have one on your yacht. Whether it's applicable or not, if a new one needs to be done, it will cut down on a lot of time if they have the old one.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Yep, Mfg builders certificate should do fine.
    or
    https://floridanauticalsurveyors.com/services/

    Hard to get anything past 24 tonnes in the swamp.o_O

    Sounds more like a Customs survey also.
    Every cubic inch subject to taxes.

    Since the laws of foreign boats getting US flagged opened up, it was speculated a lot of paper chasing and confusion could be involved.

    Please keep us up on this project if you can.
  13. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    Thanks, I forgot about Malcolm.

    It’s my understanding they will not accept any old measurements.
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    And many older boats do not have builder's certificates available. It's unfortunately an expensive task that can run from $2000 or $3000 to $30000 or $50000. The higher is on very large boats and when there is debate on whether areas are to be included or not. Builders do a lot of strategic design to come in under key sizes.
  15. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Tonnage calculations beyond the simplified method are a specialized field, just like admiralty law. There are a lot of “tricks of the trade” that can factor in to reduce your numbers, best to use a Naval Architect firm to do the calculations. Sometimes drawings/modifications are required as well.
  16. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    $2000 to $3000 would be better than the first quote of $4000 to $5000.

    Its only a 100 footer.
  17. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    While what you've said is largely true, the need to reduce the numbers is only relevant to a small percentage of boats, generally at 150' or more. Builders work hard to come in under 500 tons ITC. That's why so many 161', 164' and similar sizes. Also, in Europe, licensing requirements for captains and crews change dramatically at that same magical 24 meters (79') and you see a lot of work to work around that length. The 24 meters is evaluated by rules for determining "Convention length." The definition of convention length is:

    Either 96 percent of the length on a waterline at 85% of the least molded depth measured from the top of the flat keel, or the length from the fore side of the stem to the axis of the rudder stock on that waterline, whichever is greater. In vessels designed with a rake of keel, this length is measured on a waterline parallel to the design waterline.

    For normal US Documentation as Bill is seeking, certain surveyors (not all) are able to meet the requirements. It only goes to more work and possible involvement of a naval architect if it's greater length (pressing against the 500 Ton number) or there are some unusual features of the boat affecting what is to be considered within the "total molded volume."
  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    100' should be rather simple unless some very unusual design. You're not pressing against any of the magical tonnages that lead to manipulation and you're not trying to squeeze under 24 meters. It will be interesting to see what your other quotes are. $4000 doesn't sound that unreasonable, but $5000 seems to be pushing it a bit. Of course, that's without seeing the boat and it's design.
  19. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    I can assure you that Naval Architects get involved in tonnage calculations for reasons other than the 500 grt limits.

    I can appreciate your layman's grasp on the concept of gross tonnage as a yacht owner, but you are not a technical expert. Even simple statements like the 96% length of waterline quote have driven huge technical discussions behind the scenes and rule bending options, like false bows, redefining compartments, playing off molded depth and the relationship of rudder centerline to waterline length. Some builders have invested and figured out acceptable solutions, others are still trying to work the 24m rule criteria in their product portfolio. I have seen discussion that have taken hours just to agree on length as the rule applies!

    A tonnage calculation for a 100' yacht can be relatively basic or complex due to a number of factors, like is it a single deck or raised deck pilothouse or a tri-deck MY, etc. Plus the translation of what the different void or machinery spaces represent. Having a lines plan digitized and computer modeled is another thing, sometimes you can get that from the mfg, other times you can't. But their is work and time involved and expertise at rule interpretation and how it applies to a specific yacht.

    What are going rates for engineers / architects - $200/hour? At $5000 that's only 25 billable hours, seems like a fair amount in the overall scheme of things.
  20. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    It's only 79' at the water line! lol Now you don't need it!
    Where is the vessel's length supposed to be taken from for this tonnage calculation anyway?