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Trawler Vs. Motoryacht

Discussion in 'General Trawler Discussion' started by gccolvin, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Perhaps it's time to repost the original post that started this subject thread.

    I would say this gentleman has decided to accept a displacement speed trawler over what we generally think of the higher speed motoryacht.
  2. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    All powerboats roll, and the taller you stack them the more they roll. The sharpnest of the roll might be determined by hard or soft chine, but they all roll.
  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Smaller Size Trawlers

    Well I just read thru this subject thread, and I can see where it digressed pretty far off from the original OP's posting. I think it entered into a realm of much larger yachts than he was thinking of, so perhaps my posting about a smaller trawler doesn't really fit in to most of the existing discussions.

    These sort of sizes are what I thought he was asking about:

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-trawler-discussion/19252-trawler-houseboat.html
  4. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Just found this good definition by Judy,....from a subject thread now 6 years old.

  5. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Hello Brian,

    some years ago I had the same question like you. I wanted a boat for using the inland waterways and canals in Europe, owner operated by a couple with the possibility of the occasional 2 more guests in a separate cabin with ensuite bath. Comfortable for onboard living for some weeks and capable and sized for traveling from the Swedish islands down to the Med (via inland waterways). I was open to all materials, propulsion systems, designs and sizes. The only design feature which was set, was the choice for a full displacement yacht, because of volume, comfort, speed limits and economy.

    By order of the Admiral, I started a serious and deep research. Because of my lack of experience with inland motor boating, I hired additionally a professional small yacht engineer for an independent and open research of this subject.

    We both came to the almost same result. And our result was nothing new. The wheel was already invented :). The exact same type of boat was built in Holland by many yards, because it is the most practical design for the European inland and costal waters and its corresponding laws and regulations.

    This was the result:

    Material: Steel and undoubtedly only Steel. Because of the many locks and sloping riverbanks with rocks and the many sheet pile walls, Steel with a solid rubber running strake. Anything else would not have lasted very long.

    Hull Design: Multi chine full displacement hull with frames and stringers for volume and stability, because stabilizers were not concidered suitable for the sloped riverbanks.

    Maximum size and technical data: Maximum length 14,99 meter (length because of licence requirements) x 4,8 meters width x 1,5 meter draft and 4 meter airdraft (3,5 meter with mast and windscreen down for the bridges and canal tunnels in France). Displacement max. 30 to 32 metric tons. because of the capacity of the haul out lifts in the inland boat shops in Europe. Twin engine diesel of 150 to 180 HP each with prop and shaft plus 24 volt electrical or hydraulical bow and stern thruster. Fuel capacity for 1000 NM range at 8 Kts, potable water for one week for two people plus watermaker. 8 KVA diesel genset, diesel central water heating, air conditioning, electrical cooking, no gas, no petrol store.

    And thats the way they all looked like. Aft owner cabin with ensuite bath and owner office with raised aft deck above, two steering positions, one on the aft deck, one in the salon. Engine room under salon, galley forward of salon with additional dinette and foreward guest cabin with ensuite bath. This type of boat is build only in the Netherlands but by more than two dozend of high quality yards. These boats last for ever but are an investment between 650.000,- and 2.000.000,- US $ depending on luxury and options build in. Built time one year.

    In order to confirm our research, we chartered one for two weeks in the Netherlands and found all results correct and confirmed and bought one.

    But and there is a big but. Our children found slow boating on inland water ways f...... booooooring and never joined us and they never used the boat themself. We never had the time to go down to France or through the Göta Canal with it. It was and is only used in northern Germany and the Netherlands and selling it would be an enormous loss. So it is still in the family and sits 8 month a year in a hangar on the hard.

    Answering your question: A pure displacement motorboat for slow boating on the canals is a non starter, period.

    Below the European inland motor cruiser !

    Attached Files:

  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Nice looking boat.

    Too slow for your own use, as you were still working full time.

    Too slow for the kids (understandable)

    So it sounds as though the client for this type of a boat has to be a fully retired older couple on a limited budget.
  7. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Your last sentence is exactly what our kids are saying. Canal slow boating is a Hobby for elderly and retired people with a lot of time.

    Example: If I go by car from Hamburg to Lübeck, a beautiful destination on the Baltic sea, it takes about one hour on the Highway. Taking the Elbe-Lübeck Canal with the slow boat and sticking to the speed limit of 6 Kts, it takes 12 to 15 hours or more, depending on the traffic at the locks. So, on a normal weekend we do could a trip like this and back home. How will you entertain kids, if the only thing they see all day are the riverbanks and some locks. Its really a hobby for (like my son says) decelarated elderly people.

    Do not get me wrong, I like that boat very much. It works obsolutely flawless. It still looks like new. We have had no issues at all. The only thing I have to do, is filling the tanks, bunker provisions, disconnect the shore power and go. At the end of the season, I hand it over to a boatyard. They take it out of the water, clean it, do some maintenance and cosmetics and store it for the winter in a hangar. In May of the following year, I pick it up again for the next season.

    But this is no hobby or sport (like sailing or game fishing). This is the substitude of the rocking chair on the veranda of an eldery home (my son again). It is not that bad, but the average people we meet in the yacht harbours are in the upper 60 or older. Younger people we see, always drive semi displacement or planning boats. We use it maybe 4 or 5 times over the year for a maximum of one week at a time. The rest of our boating is sailing in the Med. And this boat has a permanent crew with skipper and is a totally different story (racing, beautiful scenery, weather, everything).

    That leeds to the resale value. Boats like this are bought by older people only. If somebody is able to invest more than half a million $ on a boat, he will not accept compromizes. He will rather buy a new build exactly according to his specs and personal needs. So, the losses on resale will be tremendous.
    Thats why most people keep those boats until they die.

    Below some more examples

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  8. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Beautiful boat,...and I am sure built to yacht standards in Holland.

    What I am researching now is the possibilty to build a 40' canal trawler for something around $200K. I really think it is possible.
    ...but only a single engine that burns 1.5 gal per hour
    ...and just the basics in a KISS style that could be fancied up to the degree and budget of the buyer

    It can look like this inside,...and a nice aft deck
    saloon to, Firefly.jpg

    saloon Firefly.jpg

    Aft Deck, Von Fyhren.jpg

    I was addressing some of those construction ideas over on this subject thread, but not to many responses this time of the year. (many are outdoors enjoying the summer I guess?.... or there are not that many interested in such a project?)
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/frequently-asked-yacht-questions/14469-fiberglass-vs-steel-hull-they-both-claim-best-6.html#post176496

    Got more responses on such an idea over here.
    STEEL HULLS with Composite Superstructure / Topsides
  9. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    Trawler & "Fast-Trawler" clientele:

    Great discourse, good input. The trawler market segment is indeed a small segment of the boating market. Pontoon boats I believe are the largest, or one of the largest, segments in the US market. So generalizations work and they don't. If the concern about quantity of trawler buyers relates to resale, then you only need one buyer and not buying the preferential yacht choice based on perceived resale might be misplacing your priorities. Let me be clear though, the trawler market is absolutely a smaller segment of yachts sold. Slightly larger is the semi-displacment trawler style (fast trawler) market.

    It is common for for the buyers in either of these groups to be retired, but retirement age no longer means geriatric age. There are the sailors whose aches and pains make trawler space and mobility more appealing and these buyers tend to be in their 50's - 80's. There are the baby boomers or the whiz kids who are able to virtual work from their boats and they can be as young as in their thirties but most are in their 40s and 50s. There are many owners in their thirties who want to home school their children in the grandest of education environments - the world! And then there are the buyers who have decided to slow down because of fuel economy, range, comfort, safety, or where and how they want to cruise and they are the folks cruising either part-time or as full time liveaboards and they are in the middle age and retirement age years. The deifnition of elderly is a moving target :D
  10. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Hello Brian,

    The main difference of the usual European inland cruiser and your favorite type of boat is our European air draft restriction and this stupid length limit of 15 meters for inland waterways. Bejond that length, you would need a commercial inland waterway skipper licence.

    Therefore we have this split level type boat, in order to make maximum use of the possible volume. This has pro and cons on both concepts.

    Your Missisippi steamer type canal or river boat has far to much airdraft for Europe and is probably less seaworthy because of its higher center of gravity and lower freeboard for the occasional open sea crossing or coastal cruise. But the living space inside is much more convenient, because all facilities are on the same deck level. All technicall stuff is below deck and only accessed when needed.

    On our boat you are always running stairs up and down, wherever you need to go. But this is the tradeoff for this large living volume on only 49 ft of lenghth and 11,5 ft airdraft. There is no standing height in the engineroom but you can remove the salon floor and the engines can be pulled by crane through a large hatch in the salon roof.

    The two engines are really needed only for maneuverability and less draft. A single 250 HP high torque diesel engine would have done the same job. But the bigger prop would have given more draft and less flexibility, when moneuvering. The economy is not bad. The two Volvo Penta D4-180 consume together some 2 Gal per hour at 6,5 Kts, 4,3 Gal at 8 Kts and some 6,5 Gal at 10 Kts. WOT would not make the boat any faster, just much more noisy and more thursty (hull speed limit). The range with the 550 Gal of diesel fuel is about 1.000 NM at 8 Kts (no reserve). This is sufficient for a 14 to 16 days cruise at 8 hours cruising a day (Which is more than enough for decelerated eldery people like us :D)

    This includes the production of AC power, as the boat has a second high capacity alternator on each engine which produce (all 4 alternators together) a combined DC power of 560 Amps at 24 Volt. This converted by an 10 KW Victron inverter bank into 230 Volt AC, produces all the DC and AC power, the boat needs during cruise. The variable speed DC genset is only needed to charge the big battery bank of 1200 Ah at 24 Volt, if the main engines are off and no shorepower is on hand. The heavy battery bank sits on the keel and is very convenient for the stability of the boat. If we go on Anker with no shorepower, the battery last the whole night (without air conditioning and watermaker) but including cooking. The DC gen starts automatically, if the battery drops below 40 % or as programmend.

    The stability of the boat is sufficient for inland waterways and rivers and even for a coastal cruise on a nice day. We went offshore once at seastate 5 with gusty winds. I must say, the Admiral was not amused. If I would buy the boat again, it would have a Gyro stabilizer. To late, no space left for one of those goodies.

    If you ask me, what I would change, buying the boat again ?. I do not know. The boat is a real no brainer, as far as operating and living on it is concerned. May be next time with hybrid drives or the steerable rudder nozzles and the gyro, thats it.
  11. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Dutch Stella Maris

    Your vessel reminds me somewhat of a good friend's 44' Custom Dutch Steel Stella Maris. Are you familar with these? He bought it to do the waterway trip up to Alaska, and he did it in a two year time frame.

    NOTE: He added that arch at the stern and the covers for the outside steering station. It had none of this when he bought it.

    Don's Boat in Seattle.jpg

    Don's 2.jpg

    559634_0_080620101122_11.jpg

    559634_0_080620101122_13.jpg

    Problem now is the vessel is out in Seattle, and he is back here on the east coast between Nova Scotia and Florida. He has it up for sale, but I've suggested he might get a price on shipping it by truck back to the east coast.
    Pacific Rim Yachts (Seattle, WA)
  12. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Do you have a photo of the bottom? Here is the bottom of that Stella Maris,...almost sailboat like in some aspects. In fact I thought maybe that usede this same hull form for a motorsailer design?

    Attached Files:

  13. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Hi Brian,

    that boat follows the same principle except for the missing of the distinctive raised aft deck. But your example seems to be a round bilge steel hull ? Without stabilizers that hull might roll already on a wet lawn :).

    Below a profile with underwater body. Hard multi chine optimized for a cruise speed of 6 to 8 Kts. Above that, it pushes a big bow wave and gets thursty. But a very sturdy design, that can take a bump. With higher waves on the nose, it gets noisy and slowed down by the waves. Its designed and made for protected inland waters.

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  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Is that one of these?

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  15. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Yep, that is the type of cruiser we are talking about. Your example is just a little more traditional design. But the principle is the same on all of them.

    They come in two different basic versions. First one is the aft cabin variant with raised aft deck and the two level staggerd forward compartements. Air draft between 9,5 and 12 feet (mast and windscreen down). Second one with aft cockpit and salon on the same level and a forward lower cabin. This version has an airdraft of as low as 8 feet. These boats made of steel and of sturdy construction. Their design evolved from the traditional little cargo and passenger ships used on inland waterways in the Netherlands.

    They also come in sizes from 25 to 50 feet, some more traditional and angular shaped, some more modern and of sleeker design. They are made by dozends of little yards all over the country. But they are all high quality boat builders.

    The Dutch boat industry has developed a perfect setup of boat building under the supervision and advice of the HISWA association, where even little builders with only small workforce are able to survive and deliver great products. They are covered and protected by technical and legal advice of HISWA and a huge group of special companies come to the little yards and do specific work like electrics, hydraulics, machinery and sometimes painting (outsourcing). Naval engineering and design is also done by external companies like for example Vripack.

    The whole Dutch boating industry sticks together like a close family :). That is the origin, where this sentence "If it ain't Dutch it ain't much." comes from. And they have their market. If you are on a sunny day on the Dutch canals with your boat, you will have the impression, that every Dutch family has a boat :D.

    Below two examples of this priciples on the same hull. The only absolute most useless but great looking feature on these boats is the rope fender. One dirty lock wall or rusty cargo ship and that thing is ruined and the skipper looks like an idiot. And its expensive too. I rather have a sturdy rubber running strake which can take a bump but still survives the season.

    Attached Files:

  16. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I like the looks of those boats, here is another one cruising the canals:

    Attached Files:

  17. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    You can see many variations in design. I share your opinion, they look the best with a dark blue or red hull and white superstructure. But they do not belong on to the oceans. They are normally CE classed in the cathegory B or even C. That means, B = coastal cruise, max. 200 NM off shore, max. seastate 8. C = protected waters only.

    We went once direct accross the north sea to England and up the River Thames to London and Windsor. Beautiful weather, calm sea, no problems. On the way back we got beaten by seastate 5 (just 5 !!), wind and rain. As I said before, the Admiral was not amused. I took the first available entrance into protected water and continued home via the Dutch and northern German canals.

    But if you stick to their neck of the woods, they provide very comfortable cruise with all amenities like home and they would allow comfortable all year liveaboard for a couple (plus dog or cat :)). You can have luxury versions with interior quality of a Megayachts, but this will catapult prizes through the roof (picture 3). And this orpulent design and equipment will definately leave the KISS principle behind.

    Attached Files:

  18. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    There is room for all the types of boats and demand to some extent for all. As my ideal boat has more speed than a true displacement hull, my ideal boat also has more seaworthiness and range than the Italian Med boats such as Ferretti. It does become primary usages and family and friends. Someone mentioned pontoons but living until this year on an inland lake I'd point out that many owned pontoons as a second boat and then for those strictly with pontoons the market has been swinging to bigger, faster, and tri-toons.

    Ultimately value for resale is going to tie more to the quality and reputation of the manufacturer than anything. Fact is that the more exciting designs tend to fall into disfavor over the years perhaps more than the dull boring designs. The boat that holds up well and maintains easily over the years will have value. I see some really strange designs I just love and know they would have no resale value. Things like the Astondoa Top Deck or the Solar Sailor or some of the Sanlorenzo's and Drettmann's. My wife and I find Hatteras exterior designs to be dull, boring and dated, but historically Hatteras has held value very well. But then my tastes are all over the place. I like Hinckley style and Riva style, about as opposite as I can think. I love speed for inland waters but don't want the constant hull patches that go fast boats require on rough waters and anytime they hit the smallest twig or can in the water.

    I think ultimately it's choose what is best for you and then, withing that genre choose quality that will probably hold value. Nearly everyone wants more speed and less cost to operate and those two tend to be somewhat mutually exclusive. So you start wanting the speed of a Hustler and the economy of a motorsailer (The typical sailboat style and shape being great for fuel economy even when on motor). Then you compromise somewhere between. I struggle with finding that middle ground just like everyone else.

    Sometimes we start saying "This boat isn't good for this" when what we're really saying is that "it wouldn't be my first choice or I don't think it's the best solution." I was laughing to myself today as Ocean Worthiness is a top subject on my list right now. Why laughing? Have you ever looked at a list of the boats to circumnavigate the world? The vast majority, nearly all, would never be recommended by us at this forum was trans-ocean usage. I've read quite a few books by those who circumnavigated and more by those who have crossed the Atlantic. Most so far have been under 50 feet and sailboats. Now that doesn't mean I'm about to do so in a boat such as that, as I'm more conservative and more one to want to be prepared for all contingencies.
  19. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Hi Olderboater,
    I think this is what you need,...an updated version of this Rhodes 44.
    Rhodes Discoverer 44, ps.jpg

    ....more here
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/6710-motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-8.html

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/6710-motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden.html


    I'd like to work on such a redesign project,.....steel hull with composite sandwich superstructure
    STEEL HULLS with Composite Superstructure / Topsides - Boat Design Forums
  20. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Dear HTM09,
    Appears as though I have miss-identified the builder of this Dutch vessel I posted before.

    Would you have the correct builder name??