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Trawler Vs. Motoryacht

Discussion in 'General Trawler Discussion' started by gccolvin, Jun 20, 2012.

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  1. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    "A rose by any other name..."

    The term trawler originally comes from the fishing boats using trawl nets. It has been adopted by the slow-boat, no-blow-boat community to refer to displacement hulls. Any other descriptions are fluff and made-up descriptions, not official classifications. I am guilty of not only using some of the descriptive nomenclature but have invented some as well. I like using trawler yacht, as appropriate, because it gives a more luxury description to the basic trawler. I like to take credit for inventing "slug boat" and "trawleresque," both said with affection of course. There are more of my favorite monikers in the various YF trawler reviews.

    While some don't like the "work boat" esthetics, it's the look that makes others drool, thus my opening quote...

    My gripe is the term "fast trawler" which is an obvious oxymoron. Btw, displacement hulls, regardless of how they are dressed, are the right speed for picking up tuna, dolphin, wahoo - you don't need to go commercial to enjoy the sea's offering.

    Judy
  2. ESCONS

    ESCONS New Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AlfredZ
    (Inace is one good builder to mention)

    I am on this thread simply because I was searching for INACE Yachts on YF. Hope not to detract too much but based on your above comment I'd like some more feedback on the yard.

    I was looking at the Luis DeBasto 120' and 126' Aft house explorer yacht designs which I think look fantastic! Keeping steel work,build quality, equipment aside, My largest concerns would be the finish. Having seen second hand INACE yachts for sale at least online I cannot say I am satisfied with the interior and exterior finish for it to look like a proper luxury yacht ( looks still too commercial).

    I am waiting to see more detailed photos of the recently launched Far Far Away to see if the actual yacht can be as luxurious as Luiz deBasto's renderings.

    Maybe as someone suggested all this boils down to is simply having a good project manager on board? Still I cannot picture the finished product to look visually as good as that from an Italian yard let alone a Dutch or German yard.
  3. ESCONS

    ESCONS New Member

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    BUMP:D

    As a continuation to the above, is it common for one yard ( eg Inace) to be contracted for the construction of hull, infrastructure, installations of engines, etc and then another yard ( US, Dutch, German - with more experience in yachts and better crafstmen?) to be contracted to finishthe yacht?
  4. RVN-BR

    RVN-BR Senior Member

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    AFAIK this has never been done with Inace yachts, and probably wouldnt be cost effective.... many yards in europe already build their hulls in cheaper areas and float them in, so I dont think there would be great benefit...

    I'm also curious to see how the newer "more luxurious" inaces look (i.e., sudami, beyond, and the new de basto aft houses)...

    In the past their design (and perhaps execution) was really too commercial for my tastes, but it may well have been by design/lack of design....
  5. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Well that is how most of the Dutch yards and everybody it seems do it now anyway.... maybe Royal Huisman is a holdout on this... one stop shopping.
    That is a question to ask the yard... important... % content built on site... who where when...etc.

    Example: Feadship dues the finishing out but subs build the superstructure and hull... and rough work nowadays. Sometimes the hull is built in Turkey the superstructure in Holland, etc etc.
    Check this out...
    Aluminium Cascobouwer | Waarom aluminium? | Bloemsma Aluminiumbouw BV

    I think DeVries bought them out and they are a subsidiary now... not sure.
  6. ESCONS

    ESCONS New Member

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    Thanks for your feedback RVN-BR and Karo,

    Going back to the Luiz de Basto design as an example, it is being marketed in this case as an Inace. Does this generally mean that the design means a commitment to buod with that yard?

    I have in the past come across designs and renderings from yacht designers which were not committed to yards where I assume the client could then get quotes and choose, while in other cases certain models are already marketed as being eg a Lurssen or a Benetti.

    Anyone have an idea how this works in practice?
  7. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Well in practice it is all over the map.

    Pretty much if you see a design advertised with a yard by a particular designer the designer has teamed with that yard to offer that yacht. Either: the yard paid someone (with a name) for the design which they intend to build as the yard owns the design OR the designer did the design on speculation and teamed with the yard to advertise and built so the yard intends to build it as the teaming agreement determines. I suppose you can buy the design from the yard and/or design and go elsewhere... but is not properly or usually done.

    If the yard advertises a design with no designer the yard has done in house or hired someone to do it for them as a stock plan... so you will buy the boat at that yard.

    If you see a design advertised with a yard and like it but don't want that yard to build you can go to the designer to design a custom for you that is similar, and then go shopping for someone to build. Also, you can hire a different designer to design something you like and go shopping.

    The problem is that you can have a designer design the style; an interior designer design the interior; a naval architectural firm do the naval architecture; an engineering firm do the details of machinery and structure; a systems integrator coordinate it all together or any combination. To simply get a design. In fact some places are one stop and some do only parts so imagine the combinations just in design. This is to the design. And, YOU PAY for it all... no freebie tryouts or looky see, or maybe. Nobody wants to work for free. You can be the integrator yourself if you have the time and experience. Some of the players may or may not work together well. And, don't forget interiors are designed and you have the same situation with that as well.

    Then once you have a design you can start getting quotes. You can go to a yard and just hire them. You can go one place for the hull, another for the machinery install, another for the interior or parts of it, another for electrical installation, another for the painting, another to integrate the mess for you. You can integrate yourself.

    Most yards have ALL these relationships worked out from design to delivery. A few do it all in house. Many have internal subs (meaning the companies are separate but share the same location) and act like subsidiaries. Its complex and usually the buyer does not know or want to deal with it all. You can save money doing it bits and pieces but the risks are high. The real rub comes in if you go to a Feadship and try to nickel and dime them... they give you a price and a handshake and you pay the upfront and the progress payments... and will humor your visits with good nature.

    The issue is really do you want to pleasure or the problems. If you hire the wrong people, try to cut costs every turn, run it yourself you will find not much pleasure and get a poorer boat.

    I find the best way is to go select a reputable and stable yard (you might end up buying the yard to finish the boat if you don't) first and then select designers that they have successfully worked with for the design aspects. Why is going to the design phase first you really don't get a good feel for the costs and practicality. On a small boat this is possible... say under 50' or 16m but large boats get darn complex. And, you have to worry about certifications and insurance costs down the road... as well as all the rest of operating. A reputable yard has that on the line... reputation and they will not build something stupid or that has problems if they want to stay in business. A note on custom boats aluminum and steel are much easier to deal with... well wood but that is passe' now a days pretty much. Composite boats are another layer of complication and expertise. If you are in the United States you might find working with US based people easier. Though most foreign yard and design firms are fine but they have national favors to them... and you may not have to translate words but working method.

    I know the prices may be shocking at first. But you pay for what you get in quality and service. You will still NEED an owner rep... why, is for all the little things you need expertise and importantly... REMEMBER when you are talking with people like the yard management... ITS the FINAL WORD and its easy to get everyone angry over unimportant things... let alone important things. Let your rep handle it as a buffer before you step in. I have found, most successful small businessmen (under $50 million year) do not have the skill set to do the negotiations and liaison themselves... without a rep... too used to getting their way in their business... and often not used to relying on others for advice and management. You must know yourself and be truthful. Your personality will effect your results and costs. Remember yacht building is a means to an end and its not your business though you pay for it. The end is suppose to be pleasure.
  8. ESCONS

    ESCONS New Member

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    Wow Karo. This is, simply put, fantastic feedback and information for which I thank you.

    I agree with what you said, and mainly when one likes a design and interior layout from a designer but not the yard ( with all due respect to Inace since this might after all be ill founded) then the options you mention seem to be the best way forward:
    1. ask the designer if the design is exculsive to that yard - if not then good;
    2. If yes then see if it is possible to buy the right to use design ( sounds complex);
    3. Get the designer or another designer to come up with a similar design.

    On point 3 with a diferent designer, one would wonder if any elements of 'copyright' come into it? Surely one cannot just use an exact design. There will need to be enough minor changes for it to be a 'new design' I assume.

    Thanks again.
  9. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    A yacht that was built in Holland using self contracting method is Grace (currently for sale with Peter Insull, in Antibes, FR) here is a video link from a Norwegian TV program NRK Nett-TV - hastighetsmåling go about 12:30 minute in and here and there they show and talk the yacht. Anyway, this was built at a Friesian work boat company and later modified at Balk. The owner decided to go a little more work boaty on the exterior than maybe would be expected on the Riviera but they cruise Norway.. Sort of interesting boating program the video is. Pretty much I think the asking price is above the build cost. But is is example what you can do.

    As to your design... its really sticky to say here "just go copy it with a designer you like" but that is possible. I would suggest find a designer you like and ask him for what you want... then you can with his help decide "why and what" you like about a particular design. I am sure you could come up with your own custom design. The issue is your specification on many thing will influence the satisfaction with the result more than the original "make it like that" starting place. Be sure to fully and in detail investigate the designer you pick as to other projects.

    But as I said I would pick a builder first and then get a designer they work with well. I could name an Italian yard or a couple French yards that you might be happy with but think you want a Dutch or German boat.

    Just thinking... you want really top notch finished boat... Dutch. Well Feadship... is not going to do anything under 40m. But Moonen order book is low and the prices are not bad around 9-9.5 million Euro on there 97 series out the door... 30 meters. The Shipyard director is a naval architect not the typical business only guy like many directors. I am sure they could do a real nice trawler. That is really not a bad price for a high quality Dutch boat.... Feadship starts at 25 million Euro for 40m or a little less. They could do a real nice trawler if you are into bigger boats and have the money.

    Also, you could go to Kuipers they specialize in trawlers... have a small yard... but limited as to maximum size... they tend to use Vripack for design (I am not too fond of that design firm but they are capable and have vast experience)... here is a video of the top of the heap from this pairing (I believe the yacht could still be for sale... just not listed FYI) 102' Long Range Motor Yacht "Beothuk" For Sales Promo Nortrop & Johnson Yachts.mov - YouTube Guess/Estimating this likely was in the 12-13 million Euro range out the door new.

    Way past bedtime and tomorrow is Sunday and I will get hell if I am not up bushy tailed for mass.
  10. ESCONS

    ESCONS New Member

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    thanks again Karo. This was a good learning curve....A lot to absorb!

    Moonen needs no introduction (the finish on Northlander is top notch!) . I will have a look at Kuipers though too.
  11. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Kuipers has worked a long time with Vripac on Trawls (actually think with Vripac invented the concept... called by them Doggersbank).

    Interesting article on the Beothuk yacht, the biggest to date at 102 feet. Most are around 84'.

    http://www.vripack.com/files/0/1/3/6/5494_article.pdf

    However, if you look closely at the Moonen 97... if you simply changed the angle of the pilot house window slope from positive to negative... the yacht would be TRAWLER.

    Here is Livia
    Livia - IMO 1010856 - ShipSpotting.com - Ship Photos and Ship Tracker
  12. ESCONS

    ESCONS New Member

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    Thanks Karo,

    yes indeed I believe if you change the angle of the pilot house on the Moonen 97 this then turns into more or less the Moonen 100 Explorer (very similar).

    TBO we were favouring an 'aft house' explorer design hence the initial mention of the Inace Luis de Basto design, and therefore something like Big Aron, Turmoil, Ulysses style. the estimated price on that was obviously also more favourable than any Dutch yard but then I guess you get what you pay for too.

    I have looked at Kuipers too and Beoturk looks very 'solid' and well finished. I would imagine that a custom explorer from them would be more favourably priced then with Moonen, maybe because they do not have as much fo a 'big name' as Moonen.
  13. nilo

    nilo Senior Member

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    explorers designed by vripack

    as the subject is the explorers designed by vripack and possibility of building that at moonen, i cannot refrain myself to drop a few words.

    the interior layout and hull of moonen 97 is completely different than the explorer. the moonen explorer under construction is designed by vripack and very much based on the previous boats built by kuipers (the hull dynamics has been worked all over again to achieve better fuel and sea keeping. she has an improved length/beam ratio, which would give her better stability at following seas, van oossanen made detail analysis of the bulbous bow and achieved 17% of fuel saving - previous doggersbank were without bulbous bows).

    fyg, kuipers are not building boats any longer for a while; the last boat they have built was the "boethuk".

    i have studied and visited "boethuk" several times before going for the present design. this was also a 3 cabin boat, with an upper enclosed pilot house. according to my perception, the shortcoming in this design was that there was not enough open space (top deck was occupied by the enclosed pilot house) and the boat was high and top heavy (the very top flybridge had limited space and was housing the jakuzi). furthermore, when you move the interior stairs as in that boat, you loose space in one of the guest cabin; hence it was just a bunk bed cabin. the multi level design of the moonen explorer breaks the flow of stairs at every 4-5 steps and this enables one to negotiate them easily at high seas.

    there was also a limited lazaret only for technical equipment, we enlarged this and placed a gym and sauna in it. of course this extension of the length enlarged the aft deck, as well as the top deck for tenders. we can store a 6 meters rib and a 5 meter sailing dingy. there is also the possibility of stowing a 3.8 m crew dingy at the aft platform.

    the main reason for choosing a 3 cabin layout was to make the cabins as large as possible for achieving comfort during long stays. also, the area for crew and storage was very much detailed. there is a full height storage and laundry room under the crew quarters. the space allocated for the crew is nearly as big as the guest cabins.

    there are of course several other details that has been looked at for improvement for a better sea going boat.
  14. oceaneer

    oceaneer Member

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    Bulbs

    van oossanen made detail analysis of the bulbous bow and achieved 17% of fuel saving

    Wow this i would love to see.
    17% is really huge, from all my studies 5% is a very good return on a bulb.
    For 17% some thing must have been wrong with the initial hull design, or they had a breakthrough.
    Thanks
    Oceaneer
  15. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Nilo:

    Not surprising on Kuipers... very limited yard as to size as I remember. Not really impressive facility numerous years ago. I thought at the time: small dry dock... maybe a place to go for service if you had a smaller boat and were in Holland. But build some good boats... suppose it was the people more than anything.

    I had much the same comments you had about Beothuk... don't know if it sold or is still on market. But when it was displayed I thought it had limited market because of the arrangement... cute boat though.

    The jacuzzi on the flying bridge deck... seemed crammed up there... and it does not have the built in edge drains so was wondering how that would fair underway... maybe they drained. Of course, you "have to have" a jacuzzi... which I personally never use. And, as you said topsides deck space was cramped. Maybe as part of the use was intended to be in Canada.

    The owner, as I remember, was retired... ran the cable company in Bermuda and had come from Canada originally... could not remember if I ever met him before in Halifax many years ago (now 35 or so). He was very much into running the boat with minimal crew... expecting family, friends and himself to do a lot of the day to day. Heavens, I'd be scalped if that idea was proposed around my circle. I personally don't want to be polishing the brightwork and cleaning the heads on time off.

    Anyway, like you said the arrangement was strange... I think because of the blending of crew and guest idea. The laundry in the guest area, and it really was a one cabin layout as the guest quarters were more crew like arrangement. The mass being very high up... I don't know... likely fine with tanks full... but light on fuel probably slow righting and more movement and longer period in roll... maybe the stabilization system was able to overcome... but its a matter of distance and mass that determines the moment of inertia... and period. Really think the forward dining area was a good idea when docked stern to... in a busy marina and the view would be best. But in my experience in port everybody wants to go somewhere for dinner... unless you are somewhere with no place decent to go... and at sea might be a not the best in a swell. You are right hardly any deck space... . I thought the big point everyone made when it was making the rounds about the LED lighting was a little over kill. Yes, it seems good but I don't think it took off like they thought. The thing that concerned me was plastic sea water piping in the engine room... very neatly done... but I really don't like plastic pipes on a boat. Why is they fatigue and can crack and leak. Also, remember the gen sets were on rollers... for ease of service. I was really not fond of this for many many reasons. I want the equipment stationary even it is a little harder for the "crew" to service. Well my opinion does not matter, anyway, but that is it... but it is handsome.

    Anyway, I did go check out the Moonen 100 explorer... not looking but just curious after your comments... personally prefer the 97 series and its layout. Actually, think it is an excellent platform and arrangement for a yacht. Have seen numerous Moonens over time any they are all first class in all aspects... and compare well to anything you can name. The size is good too they specialize in.

    One of the problems is many places a big boat over about 35 meters, starts having problems with fitting in and has to anchor out. I am sanguine on anchoring out and still able to get on and off via the tender that but when the ladies start getting older they don't like that much not that many I know ever did as it is inconvenient and effects enjoyment of the port of call. AND, if they don't have a good time its NOBODY has a good time.
  16. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Here is the Moonen 100 explorer link... Moonen 100 Explorer yacht
    the three stateroom layout seems very practical making the guest rooms a little more roomy. From what Nilo said, I am assuming hull optimized for cruising speed... not a bad idea considering that is where the boat spends most of its time underway.
  17. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Displacement-Speed Vessels

    Forgive me as I have not read thru this subject thread,...yet, but I soon will.

    I just recently visited onboard 2 Pilgrim 40 trawlers in the Annapolis area last week, and I was as impressed with these vessels as muck in real life, as I had been on paper. One of the owners lent me a book he had entitled "Seven Miles an Hour". It is kind of a witty, cute story of a Canadian couple who almost by accident ended up buying a vessel to supplement their cottage on the lake in Canada. its their first 'big boat'.
    Seven Miles an Hour: Retiring on a Trawler, With Cats: Don Wallace: 9780972750165: Amazon.com: Books

    But, back to the title of that book. Basically it speaks to the pure idea of a true displacement-speed vessel. Whenever I look at a boat design, regardless of its type, I'm always asking myself, 'what is the marketability of that vessel design'?

    I believe I ask myself this question for several reasons:
    1) If I should buy one, what might I expect to get upon resale?
    2) What might I expect to pay for the vessel in the first place?
    3) What might I change about the design? (especially since I have always been interesting in designing vessels)
    4) Etc

    In the past I've been principally interested in sailing craft, particularly multihull ones, and principally in motorsailers. I've presently developed a real interest in what I might term a canal-trawler vessel,...one such....

    Not knowing as much about power vessel hull shapes, I've been doing a fair amount of reading. I'm really trying to define this difference in hull shapes that have been adopted for true 'displacement-speeds', verses semi-displacement ones above their theoretical hull speed limits. Its interesting, all of this fudging of figures to suggest that one type of hull can exceed its displacement-speed without losing fuel economy to any significant degree.:rolleyes:

    When I talk to some brokers about the 'marketability' of a true displacement speed vessel, most all seem to think that the American market is just not too pre-disposed to this idea of displacement-speed. I wonder?.....and I particularly wonder about this question in this day of ever escalating fuel prices?...and with an aging population?

    So I ask, Is the true displacement-speed trawler a non-starter?
  18. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    Brian - your posts are usually so intelligence oriented, I really had to read this a few times to try to make sense of it. Then I waited hoping someone else might respond.

    For the short answers, firstly you're obviously not consulting with displacement oriented brokers. Secondly, Americans not being pre-disposed to displacement speeds is trying to make a one size fits all kinda boat. Of course not everyone wants to cruise at 8 knots, any more than everyone wants to zoom at 20 plus knts. Displacement and semi-displacment hulls offer various advantages and disadvantages. You need to assess your priorities and goals, consult with knowledgable and objective professionals, and then figure out which hull form best accommodates your parameters.

    Judy
  19. okskipper

    okskipper New Member

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    Well said, Judy..........
  20. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Thanks Judy for your reply. Perhaps I did not convey well enough what I was after.?....a sort of impromptu survey

    Here is a note I recently received from a broker who I believe has sold a number of trawler type vessels. He sold one in particular that I was asking about, and we had a short phone conversation on the state of the boat market, and the marketability of certain types. Here was his reply to the displacement canal-trawler boat I suggested to him that I thought might be marketable


    Is that any clearer, what I'm seeking to determine? Is there really a market for a poke-along canal trawler in the USA?? ...a 7-8 knot boat with great fuel economy (1.5 gal per hr),....or will most buyers demand 10-12 knots and be willing to accept a fuel economy thats likely more than 4 times that figure above?