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Stabilizers on a refit

Discussion in 'Stabs, Tabs & Gyros' started by Northwind, Jan 15, 2017.

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  1. Northwind

    Northwind Member

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    I am restoring an old USCG boat (this is one of several posts involving the project).

    I know there have been many past posts on stabilizers. But, there have been advances and I'd like to get the current view.

    The boat has no hydraulic system. All the heavy equipment is electric.

    Stilization at rest is as important if not more important that stabilization underway.

    The boat is too large for gyros. Seakeeper would require multiple units. The boat maxes out at 10-12 knots so there is not much speed.

    What stystems should I review? Are there issues that I should understand before talking to the major suppliers?
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    In all honesty, given your speed seakeepers would be the most logical choice. They REALLY shine at hull speed and at rest. As for fins, perhaps NAIAD or Trac.
  3. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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  4. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    After reading each of your posts my advice is to contact a very competent firm of naval architects and marine engineers. If you are in Norfolk, Virginia they are only a few minutes away.

    http://www.dlba-inc.com/newconstruction/
  5. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Why would someone need to waste money on that? He has after all asked for advice at the place that specialises in big boats. Shouldn't that be enough?:D
  6. Northwind

    Northwind Member

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    The boat is on the west coast. I have hired a naval architect. But, I never get advice from one person. And, I never buy something without understanding the basics. That is why I am here.
  7. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Based on the other questions posted, that doesn't sound like the case. With all due respect, a thorough understanding of the project and the process should have been in place long before the deal closed. Hopefully you have hired a owner's rep and/or project manager with a solid and successful history of refit management of the scope you outlined through your questions.

    K1W1 and I both have seen - too many times - the results of owners falling victim to one of yachting's dirtiest little secrets. Refit waters are infested with sharks and based on the questions you have posted, there is blood in the water.

    This project boat isn't the Pacific Hunter ex USCG Ewing is it? The specs and descriptions you provided don't appear to match those of any USCG vessel and certainly not the last batch of 110 foot Island Class boats that went on the market. Why not just say what boat it is?
  8. Northwind

    Northwind Member

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    My statement remains correct because I am not obligated to complete the purchase. Of course, this has nothing to do with the question posed.

    And, the details that I provided are correct. You have made a bunch of factually inaccurate assumptions.

    It would be great if there were a place on the internet where you could freely ask questions and learn from those who have "been there-- done that." Wait. That's supposed to be this forum.

    But, that is not the way it works here. A newby or stranger with a question off the beaten path is treated like a child. Posters here inquire about every detail under the guise that they need to understand the full situation. BS. They can't help themselves from commenting on every aspect of the person's life. There is a social problem at play.

    I don't provide more details because I know that this will only lead a few members to engage in a worthless circle jerk. I ask for a recommendation on water makers and the thread devolves into a whether or not I have reasonable expectations in paying a captain (real example).

    But, thanks for your reply.
  9. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    If you expect to receive reliable realistic information from anyone you should be prepared to reveal full details of what you want to do and what you want to do it. If you expect to receive the same from a free forum when only giving a half assed description of what you really want and describe a vessel vaguely you have no real reason to complain about the info you receive. If you feel posters here are urinating on your fish and chips there is an easy fix to that. Don't come here.
  10. Northwind

    Northwind Member

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    I am offering constructive criticism. "Give me my ball cause I don't want to play anymore." Is not really helpful
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    There are some of us here who have actually been there and done that. I am looking into a project now that is a bit different and the proposed approach is quite different but it has been done before with mixed results.

    I have advised the guy who wants to do it that there are many pitfalls with each of his proposed processes, he should not let his right hand man or broker push him in any direction that he does not fully understand the consequences of advancing in.

    I would like to do this guys project but I do not want end up with a pissed client who has been sold down the swannie by those who are blinded by dollar signs.

    If he does not like what I have to say he can easily decline my services. He is paying me for advice. You are getting some advice here and seem to have taken umbrage at some of what has been suggested. If your skin is that thin I do not think a big refit is the best way forward as whats been said here will pale into insignificance by some distance by the time you get it done or get sick of it and abandon the project altogether.
  12. Northwind

    Northwind Member

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    My question is simple: what forms of active stabilizers are best (most reliable, best manufacturer, etc and why) for a full displacement, round bilge hull, moving at 10-12 knots. For several reasons seakeeper is out according to their engineer at the Ft. Lauderdale boat show.

    I assume that those of you who have experience prefer some systems over others. I suspect that some are better at rest. I suspect some companies offer better support. This was the question.

    Telling me to just hire a consultant is not an answer to the question. That's my point.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Actually it very much is the answer. You are expecting people on a forum to advise you on a boat they know little to nothing about. That's like asking a doctor for a diagnosis by you just describing a few of the symptoms over the phone and with no examination.

    You haven't even disclosed the size of the boat, but say you've been told seakeeper is out. Single Seakeepers handle up to 75' and 85 tons and multiples go much larger so guess we're to assume it's larger than that or perhaps you shared some information you haven't with us. People put multiple Seakeepers in boats all the time for many reasons. I know boats with multiple Seakeepers and Naiads.

    If I felt either Marmot or K1W1 was out of line on this thread, I'd state so, but I think the only one out of line has been you.

    You have no hydraulics, well does that mean you refuse to install any? K1W1 pointed you in the direction of his preferred vendor and product. Did you even look at the link he gave you?

    You ask are there issues you should understand to do this. Well, yes, many of them. Starting with the one that you're over your head. What did the naval architect you claim you have suggest?

    You're treated like a child you claim, perhaps a petulant one, perhaps because you're acting like one?

    You've been given suggestions. It's now your right to listen or not, but to attack those attempting to advise you isn't going to get you anywhere.
  14. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Expecting anonymous members of a recreational boating forum to provide free and accurate advice based on practically no information doesn't seem like a bright idea either. Are you confident that you fully comprehend the scope and cost of the project you propose?

    There is a huge difference between what might be someone's favorite brand or type and what best suits your application and intended use. A large boat is a system comprised of many subsystems and they all must work together to produce the outcome you desire.

    You said you have already hired a naval architect, hiring an experienced conversion specialist (yes, a consultant) is the next step ... and if you don't like what he says about some of your ideas then he might be worth trusting. If he only tells you what you want to hear, expect a long and expensive trip to the breaker's yard.

    You can keep shopping for the answers you want to hear or take advice from industry professionals who really have "been there, done that" it's up to you. Aside from the advice K1W1 and I have given, the kind you really need is not going to be free - which was our point. I suspect the reason for for not identifying the boat may be because you might not really want to hear what may be said about it and your plans. I can guarantee that if you identify the boat, someone will know it and probably have answers to all of your questions, even those you don't want to ask.

    Good luck.
  15. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Here is my first post again, these guys will tell you the truth warts and all. http://www.yachtforums.com/threads/stabilizers-on-a-refit.27400/#post-242214
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The problem is the way you guys get around to telling the guy you need more information and his best choice would be to hire someone knowledgable about refits. Honestly, this thread is like reading a novel when every post can be about 6 sentences with a lot less animosity.

    Anyways, Northwind. In order to get really good advice on stabilizers for your boat, more needs to be known about your actual boat, size, weight, windage, all play a role. Seakeeper tends to really shine in your application, but uses a lot of electricity and may require multiple units. Now there are applications where other brands would be good too, but without knowing specifics, how can someone recommend Naiad over Wesmar etc. etc. and you may even need multiple units of those. But we need more facts in order to make a recommendation.
  17. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Read Post No 12 above, One would tend feel that Seakeepers engineers do not share the same thoughts when asked about his project.

    We have a single Seakeeper in a 45ft Tender, its my first experience with one and I am impressed, we tried the test boat without one and this one rides so much better.
  18. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    Was on a new 165 E Mangusta with four Seakeeper 20 units installed incredibly stable at the dock and on the hook, absolutely worthless above 12 knots. Owner and N/A are looking to fit a Mag lift system in lieu of fins where two of the 20's currently take up prime real estate. I wont say on this Forum my thoughts on the rest of this vessel except that they seem to be for sale rather quickly after delivery.
    As far as this fellows project goes for stabilizers , maybe a pair of Lee Boards or Flopper Stoppers would do the trick. :) Sounds like a gentleman with good intentions that is either going to find religion in hiring a re-fit specialists firm with several successful large vessel refits on their resume in conjunction with a good (re fit) naval architect to produce the necessary documents to attain a desirable outcome. J, You'll find that most of the larger boats are starting to install both gyro's and fin stabilizers to complement one or the others limitations.
  19. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Well, it remains we don't have the information to make a recommendation on the entire re-fit or on the stabilizer issue. I can't imagine the Seakeeper engineer said no to Seakeeper. I can imagine him saying it would take multiple units if the boat was large. Full displacement would not have the issues you did on the Mangusta.

    As to favored stabilizers, I've seen people happy with all. Among them, ABT-Trac, Naiad, Quantum, Seakeeper, Paravanes, Side-Power. The only one I'd eliminate on this boat is Side-Power as they don't really have a product designed for such a boat. Oh, and Paravanes, simply because I don't like them. The others all have multiple products to fit different boats. K1W1 mentioned Quantum. They offer many different products for different uses including even winglets.

    Three skilled and experienced engineers have offered help and two others of us. Even people who aren't the most active posters here have taken their time to respond.
  20. Northwind

    Northwind Member

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    To the extent that I have caused some of this confusion, I apologize.

    There is a great deal of interest in and errant assumptions about where I am
    In the process. I have a boat under contract (I have had others-- they didn't work out). I have a naval architect. He has executed an initial survey-- it looks promising. They will execute a more in depth survey. If that goes well, there will be a sea trial. If I buy the boat, he will make suggestions as to how to make specific modifications. Some, broad decisions have been made. Most, are still open pending further information. My naval architect has not made any specific recommendations at this point.

    So, I am not "shopping" for a particular answer. I am not countering advice given to me. And, at at risk of beating a dead horse, not one fact above has anything to do with my questions on stabilizers, paints, etc.

    What I hoped to find here is advice from people that operate in different parts of the world. People that have had experience with multiple manufactures. People that have found a system that they like for reasons that they can articulate. And, several posts did exactly this. Others got wrapped up in the process of the refit which was not described and which does not matter in light of the facts.
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