Click for Cheoy Lee Click for Westport Click for Mag Bay Click for Walker Click for JetForums

Some Pics on a Feadship Motor Sailor

Discussion in 'Feadship Yacht' started by Jachten Jantje, Feb 11, 2011.

  1. Jachten Jantje

    Jachten Jantje New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Zoetermeer NL
    van Lent has built in the 70's a demonstration vessel for Lips Propellors to demonstrate variable pitch prop's. The vessel was originally called Rob II and later renamed to Macharius. I attach some pics of this beautiful little ship.

    Attached Files:

  2. david_japp

    david_japp Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    london
    Macharius ex Rob II Feadship

    she is indeed an exquisite yacht. Do you happen to know where she is now lying as I'd like to contact the owner to get further details about her. I'm i trying to figure out what will be my next "project" will be after I finish the refit/rebuild of my 61ft 1961 Feadship Alto (ex Tiky), and a 50/50 motor sailor such as Macharius is definitley on the cards. best David
  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,809
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
  4. Laurence

    Laurence Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    250
    Location:
    Chattanooga TN
    Motorsailor?

    It would be a nice boat if you would take the d*mn rags off of her!
  5. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,809
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    Steadying Sail vs. Get Home Sail

    ...just found this thoughtful anaylsis on another forum...thought it could be appropriate to some of these discussions...brian



    Unlike most of the scholastic arguments on the TWL, I have some
    practical data on this one.

    For a couple of decades I owned an older Willard Horizon motorsailer.
    The Willard had a full keel displacement hull with gently rounded
    chines, a high bow and a rounded stern. The design was similar to that
    of small sail working boats of a century ago with all that that
    implies. Power was supplied by a Perkins 4-107 driving an 18" x 14"
    prop. It was easily driven below hull speeds and had good seakeeping
    qualities but tended to roll in beam seas.

    The boat carried 260 sq. ft. of sail on a low aspect rig, a large
    foresail and a smaller main. This is only about half the sail that a
    cruising sailboat of similar specifications would carry and the Willard
    could be considered to be sailing under perpetually reefed conditions.

    On a calm day and with a clean hull it required 22.6 hp. to drive
    PUFFIN at its 7 kt. hull speed. This estimate was confirmed by careful
    fuel consumption measurements kept over several years. The best speed I
    had ever gotten under sail alone in a beam wind was 5 kts. It took
    approximately 8.2 hp. to move the boat at this speed under power.
    Sailboat designers estimate that sails can produce about 1 hp. for each
    27 sq. ft. of area under good conditions. The 260 sq. ft. of sail on
    the boat should generate about 9.6 hp. of propulsive effect. The 1.4
    hp. difference between the 9.6 hp. generated and the 8.2 hp. required
    to move the boat at a 5 kt. speed is undoubtedly due to the drag of the
    large non-feathering prop. In essence, the prop drag costs 15% of the
    generated sail power.

    To make only 3 kts. in a get home sailing mode, the boat will
    theoretically require approximately 1.8 hp. Allowing for prop drag the
    sails will have to generate about 2 hp. Under good sailing conditions
    this would require 54 sq. ft. of sail, about that of a small sailing
    dinghy or Sunfish. Obviously this is for ideal conditions. To be on
    the safe side, a minimal get home rig for the Willard would require at
    least 100 sq. ft. of sail. And, since get home conditions are likely to
    be in horrible weather, the mast and rigging should be strong and the
    sail made in storm sail weight. A low aspect ratio 12' x 10' standing
    lugsail would suffice.

    Scaling this data up for a 45' LWL, 45,000 lb. displacement boat, 3 kt.
    get home speed, allowing for prop drag, would require 2.75 directly
    applied hp. under ideal conditions. This could be generated by about 75
    sq. ft. of sail area. Using a safety factor of 2, the get home rig
    should carry 150 sq. ft., about that of a small daysailer. This might
    require a 20' mast and a 15' boom. As in the previous case, the rig
    should be suitable for storm conditions. Low aspect ratio rigs, perhaps
    a gaff, spritsail or lugsail would be best for carrying the maximum
    amount of sail on an unballasted boat. This type of sail is more
    efficient in beam and following winds anyway. Even a square sail would
    do but these require more rigging and knowledge than most of us want to
    burden ourselves with.

    I would like to point out that either of these minimal get home rigs
    will have very poor sailing performance by modern standards. They would
    parallel those of ancient Greek and Egyptian vessels. Pointing ability
    would be almost non existent. The boat could make progress only in beam
    or following winds. That's exactly the way the ancient ships sailed.
    They stayed at anchor or rowed until the wind was favorable. Still,
    with patience, a boat could cross oceans with this type of rig.

    Getting back to the main topic. Steadying sails are not for propulsion
    and are effective in stopping roll in beam winds. I have found a reefed
    mainsail minimizes roll when motoring in choppy conditions. For the
    Willard that meant about 50 ft. of sail area. The sail is sheeted in
    tight amidships and offers no propulsion power. The boat takes up a
    slight angle of heel and and the roll is attenuated. It is far more
    effective, of course, to actually sail using the full sail area. In
    that case the roll disappears almost entirely. We did most of our
    cruising along the Atlantic coast in a motorsailing mode, using both
    power and sail whenever the wind was suitable. Fuel consumption dropped
    to low levels and the sails stabilized the boat.

    Again scaling up to bigger boat size, a 75 to 100 sq. ft. sail would be
    effective as a steadying sail. But, if you are going to rig a sail
    anyway, why not go whole hog and make it a get home sail.

    Riding sails are useful for high bowed or forward pilothouse trawlers
    that sheer back and forth at anchor. These are small sails mounted at
    the stern of the boat that serve as feathers on an arrow, keeping the
    bow pointed toward the wind. A small 20 or 30 sq. ft. sail will usually
    suffice. Recent research at MIT shows that a small riding sail will
    substantially reduce anchor loads by minimizing sheering.

    Finally, under the windy conditions in which get home and steadying
    sails are used, there is a lot of stress on the mast and stays. The
    rigging should be sized primarily for the stiffness of the boat not for
    the sail area. While a 150 sq. ft. sail area daysailer may get by with
    1/8" wire rope for mast stays, a trawler using the same sail might need
    to upgrade the stays to 1/4". Most of the force on the sail is
    translated to downward pressure on the mast and upward pull on the
    windward stay. Typically trawlers are not constructed to resist deck
    compression forces and the structure under the mast may have to be
    reinforced or a compression post installed to transfer load to the
    keel. Using sails as roll dampers is even harder on the rig than steady
    sailing and the chainplates, the places where the mast side stays are
    attached, must be firmly fixed to the hull structure and not just the
    cabin sides. The ultimate disclaimer, of course, is to have your get
    home or steadying rig designed by a good naval architect.

    Larry Z
  6. GeorgeBertil

    GeorgeBertil New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Porto Azzuro
    Feadship Motorsailor ex-Rob

    I have seen the Rob yesterday in the Netherlands I think and has been converted in a motoryacht.
  7. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,344
    Location:
    Europe
    Motor sailor

    If there is a smooth changeover from a motorboat towards a true sailing boat, this boat with its steadying sails is much more on the motor boat side.

    This example below, of a 40 meter Jongert, is IMO a true motor sailor. It does not sail very well and it is not performing very well under engine power (underpowered). A motor sailor, a bit of both worlds but nothing perfect.

    With todays naval architecture and computer designed hulls and riggs, the time of a motor sailor is over. A term of the past. Modern, larger sailboats perform perfectly under sail and cruise under engine power for several thousend miles.

    Attached Files:

  8. david_japp

    david_japp Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    369
    Location:
    london
    The Rob

    Any chance of having some pics of the ROB as converted to a motoryacht
    Thx
    david
  9. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2007
    Messages:
    2,532
    Location:
    Guernsey/Antigua
    Well that's Perini Navi out of business then. Done and dusted. Hands washed.

    :D

    Perini Navi Group Fleet | PERINI NAVI
  10. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,809
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
  11. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,344
    Location:
    Europe
    Do not get me wrong. I am just saying, the term Motorsailer is a thing of the past. With todays knowledge and technology, you can have a perfect sailing boat, which is performing under engine also very well.

    The old type heavy long keel motorsailer was a symbiosys of both worlds but nothing perfect. Long keeled sailboats are left for the classical design (Meteor type or J-class). As far as maneuvering and sailing performance and even seaworthiness is concerned, they are not needed anymore.

    Perini Navis are good sailboats. But with todays aluminum (Alustar) technology, a steel hulled sailboat IMHO is out of date. Even PN is changing to Alu. Look at boats like Athena, Twizzle, Mystere and many more examples from those yards, they are the future of larger sailing boats. GRP / CRP is great for the racing minded owner. The owner, who likes performance but wants a lasting and sturdy sailing vessel will be more than happy with an Alustar hull with modern underwater body and leave the carbon part for the rig.

    I still love historical and clasical sailboats. Yesterday, I acted as skipper on an more than 120 year old wooden shooner during a tall ship race in the German bay. Piloting this type of vessel is an unbelievable amount of fun but for personal use? Far to much maintenance, to much crew, very hard work, maneuvers like a slowpoke, bad performance under engine (barely beats the tide). Competing with us were some large Dutch sailing vessels (former cargo vessels, converted into square rigger barks, barkentines and brigantines and some schooner) They do not performe very well either and look awfull as well. We were at least the best looking vessel, from the aestethic point of view :). The most important thing is not to win but to take part! (Pierre de Coubertin)
  12. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,344
    Location:
    Europe
    This is an example of a true Motorsailer, the Nauticat 44 (still in production !). It is not a bad sailer but the upwind performance is not by far as good as with a "real" sailboat. Very good quuality boat, made in Finnland. The also build smaller ones, 38 and 33 ft and a bigger one, 52 or 55 ft. And they come with different rigging, Schooner, Ketch and Sloop. You will find some of them on the used boat market.

    Attached Files:

  13. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Messages:
    2,809
    Location:
    St Augustine, Fl and Thailand
    While that Nauticat 44 looks like a nice vessel, it just doesn't do it for me 'looks wise'. I prefer the Rhodes 'Discoverer model' or this Alden 57 footer.

    BTW I need to correct that link I gave above for the Alden
    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/178813-post108.html

    Attached Files: