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Seaworthiness comparison between two yachts

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by LeagueOfBoats, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. LeagueOfBoats

    LeagueOfBoats New Member

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    Thank you for all your suggestions! I will do some more research!
  2. ranger42c

    ranger42c Senior member

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    There's a blog out there from some folks who took a 42 Silverton Convertible from Boston (I think) to St. Thomas. Just about got their a$$e$ handed to 'em on the last leg of seriously open water. So much for weather windows. Apparently the boat actually did "fine" though (sorta-kinda) but most of their stuff was all jumbled up inside. (Maybe the newer 45s and 48/50s would do even better?)

    Anyway, not a recommendation or argument; merely using that to mention that often the boat (many boats) can stand much more than the crew can take.

    -Chris
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    One boat that would do the traveling you're looking to do and around your price range would be a 43'-44' lagoon power cat. Seaworthy, efficient, has the range.
  4. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    OK, I gotta weigh in here. Now don't take this personal, but you are getting waaaaay ahead of yourself. You say you're inexperienced, but you're asking whether to climb Everest in Nikes or Adidas sneakers if you get the metaphor. It is neither the right equipment, nor should you be climbing Everest. Anything outside of TowBoat US range on a halfway decent day is Everest.

    Any large water, but the ocean in particular, is very unforgiving of unprepared and under equipped mariners. Yes there are plenty of stories of amazing journeys by people in boats that (both) shouldn't have been out there, but there are many more stories of those that didn't make it and were called fools. And then there are many, many more that were prepared and were seasoned mariners and didn't come back. Do not underestimate the sea. It tolerates us with a bemused smile, most of the time. I have been out there quite a few times, I have seen it's fury, and not nearly as bad as some have. I have a deep respect for it.

    You have time, this is good. My advice to you is to get some training and rent on the Chesapeake, the Gulf, the Great Lakes. Sizable bodies of water that can kick your butt. I've been on Lake Erie in squalls and suddenly a 36 foot boat in 10-12 footers is not that simp-le a proposition anymore. Learn boat handling in heavy weather, navigation when the electronics quit, line handling.... learn to FIX boats. (No one is going to come and change your fuel filters 300 miles from shore). You'll be on a Coast Guard chopper and leaving it.

    And learn BOATS. Design, build techniques. The difference between a 50,000 pound 48' trawler and a Sea Ray of the same length. How they take waves, wether on the bow, the beam or breaking over the stern. Plastic through hulls versus bronze through hulls. Waterproof bulkheads. Ventilation and keeping the water out of the boat. Windows that will take a wave and ones that won't. It goes on and on and on.

    We could tell you which of the two boats is (marginally) more seaworthy, but IMHO neither is. I've seen boats like that in trouble on bays and lakes. I wouldn't take either "out there" and neither should you.

    In fact, in the end there is no guarantees, and even the most seaworthy boats can get themselves in a pickle. First YOU need to be seaworthy, and learn what that means. Then YOU decide what equipment YOU think is worth taking the risks with.

    No one here can answer that question for you, nor can we recommend anything that would make YOU safe out there right now.
  5. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    Wise advice Oscarvan. And with wisdom, comes status. You're officially a Senior Member now. Welcome to YF's Old Phart club!

    Attached Files:

  6. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    I will tell the wife and we will celebrate tonight! Seriously, I appreciate the compliment.
  7. FIQ

    FIQ Member

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    I was reading the guys posting in horror! I had visions of him putting Coasties in danger because of a rescue!
    I have a Navigator 5300 with a zero interest of going out in blue water! I spent 6 years in the Navy in blue water, and during good weather it was boring, and caught on the edge of a typhoon, not boring! That was on a 390' destroyer with an experienced Captain! Nope! I'm perfectly happy to hang in the Puget Sound with a someday of doing the Inside Passage to AK. Note, "Inside Passage" with other boats for company!
  8. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The Navigator VP of Sales told me about the time he took a boat to the boat show. Tight schedule, bad weather, no experienced crew, all the good stuff. The boat had zero hours, no break-in whatsoever.

    He met the boat as it was being offloaded from the truck, they had a factory crew put it back together. There was a tight weather window with an early Hurricane warning. He ran the boat to the show with the factory crew putting her back to show condition underway, ran into the tail end of that weather system, and noted he was the only boat out there for the time being. Spent a tough 48 hours in weather conditions you would avoid at all costs, had to "lay to" for awhile rolling on beam ends, basically from salon side to salon side. None of the factory crew had ever been out on the ocean before!

    Anyways, they came through mostly unscathed, some extra clean-up for the show. People couldn't believe they were out in that stuff, the moral of the story is that your boat will take more than you think or can. It takes the right person behind the wheel making good decisions when faced with adverse conditions.

    People tend to claim a Hatteras or a Viking or a Bertram are the only things afloat that can accomplish a passage that may be open to rough conditions. Hogwash, boats of all types have done passages of all kinds. Will it be cozy and nice and you won't spill a drink? Hell no, but you can get to the other side in many craft that don't start with an H or V or B. It just takes the right person behind the wheel making good decisions when faced with adverse conditions. Get your sea time, properly outfit your boat, and enjoy the rewards.
  9. FIQ

    FIQ Member

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    It must have been kinda scary to take the factory people from boat building in the desert to getting toss around on a virgin boat!
    I get it. I'm sure that FIQ can handle semi serious water. It's just that I'm not interested in blue water sailings. I'm only interested in the Puget Sound up to the Charlotte Islands, and then later the Inside Passage. I'm looking forward to when I retire in a couple of years to go up to Winter Harbour on NW Vancouver Island for some extended fishing.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    This is pure BS. Sure a lot of other brands are pretty sea worthy. But by saying any brand will get you through any rough sea is nonsense. I took a 70' Bluewater across the gulfstream to Nassau in 6' seas. We snapped an exhaust riser that started pumping water into the boat from all of the hull flexing and had a few other things go on. A bluewater houseboat in 12' seas or a bayliner or any other value brand in the 40-50' range, your chances of broaching due to hull design or having a major failure are very high compared to a solidly built brand with a good hull design. Some vessels were never designed or built to a standard to do open water crossings and simply shouldn't. I know of one guy that used to cross the gulfstream back in the day from Fort Lauderdale to Bimini and back, 50 miles each direction, in a 13' Boston Whaler. Yeah a whaler is unsinkable, but I don't think most people would feel that it was a safe or prudent decision to do so in a 13' whaler, no matter how nice the weather.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  11. LeagueOfBoats

    LeagueOfBoats New Member

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    Thank you for taking your time to write this. I understand that the most critical factor to my success in the seas is none other than me.

    I'm not the type of person who would risk my life or the safety of my family by taking out a boat in risky conditions without experience. I plan to approach learning very safely and watch the weather as carefully as I would in my professional career, knowing that my own safety as well as the safety of my family are at stake.

    Perhaps I will one day discover that neither of the boats I proposed are fit at all for a trip to the Bahamas. Perhaps I will become experienced and discover the opposite.

    In either case, I won't be discovering it the hard way on a Coast Guard chopper. I will learn about the seas in the safest way possible and I'll be careful not to push my limit. Thank you again for being concerned about a newbie. No offense taken. :)

    I know that boating is a long journey, and I'm in no rush to get shipwrecked or hurt.

    Thank you as well to everyone else joining in on the discussion.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Both Bayliners would do a Bahamas crossing on a nice day. If you are dead set on one of them, ship it to St. Thomas from Fort Lauderdale and then work your way down the island chain. I believe DYT ships to St. Thomas. Neither bayliner is really suitable for the conditions down in the islands and weather can change rapidly down there. But both would probably be ok if you really watch weather.
  13. LeagueOfBoats

    LeagueOfBoats New Member

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    I had another small question related to this topic.

    Is the European CE "A" category certified on a boat strong evidence that the boat is capable of handling in blue waters? Or is that just a marketing scheme/strategy which carries no significant meaning?
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    YES, maintenance also plays a large part of this. For example: If an owner buys a Class A yacht and does no maintenance whatsoever or shoddy maintenance for 3 years, it could be just as unsafe as a class d yacht in a sea.

    "
    A Class A yacht ( boat ) is a vessel that is built to navigate the open ocean and surpass a force 8 on the Beaufort scale and surpass waves higher that 4 meters. These yachts are constructed to be self sufficient in hostile seas.

    A Class B yacht ( boat ) is a vessel built to navigate on the offshore waters (200 miles and less) and can substain UP TO force 8 and waves UP TO 4 meters.

    A Class C boat is a vessel built to navigate inshore such as lakes, rivers, bays and close to the shore and can sustain UP TO force 6 and waves UP TO 2 meters.

    A Class D boat is built for protected or sheltered waters such as canals, rivers, small lakes and sustain a force 4 and waves UP TO .3 meters (less that 1 ft)."

    https://itayachtscanada.com/understand-the-class-a-b-c-d-in-yachting/
  15. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    So I did not say any brand could take any seas whatsoever, and nice move to jump on a houseboat as your example.

    I did state that there is a noticeable trend in these types of discussions to state that n Hatteras, Viking or Bertram is the way to go for an open ocean crossing of this discussion.
  16. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    The European classifications are VERY serious. They are not a marketing scheme by any measure.
  17. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The CE stability ratings are useful and there are some tricks to recognize.
    They essesentially take the Naval Architects righting moment calculations and compare them to the Windage from the Lateral Profile and at the same time include downflooding locations such as engine room vents, door openings, etc. There are a few more parameters that have influence as well.
    If you have enough area in your Righting Arm curves when compared to the different category metrics, you pass and get the rating (simplified version) . Basically your hull form that supports your deck and house has to exhibit enough energy to overcome the heeling moments without allowing flooding points to be submerged.
    So you can make some gains by playing with downflooding points and your boat profile. That is why you see some ridiculously low radar arches and there can be exceptions to hard tops and enclosures. And the trend has been to move engine room vents from the hull sides to above the sheer line or inside the cockpit.
    A double cabin MY with bridge and aft deck enclosures will have a hard time making B without some tricks.
    There are some A rated boats that would surprise you as well as B, the difference can come down to Downflooding Points like engine room vents. Most people are fine with a B, an A rating should really be for a true blue water boat, which some A rated boats are not.
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Even cost reduced brands that look like they should be able to take some seas, I have witnessed windows blown in from just bow splash and small white water.

    We use these big names ; Hatteras, Viking or Bertram because we have been on them when the water gets ******. When we want to come home and not have problems, we lean to what we know.
    I have been on many others (and not house boats) that have fell apart in just choppy stuff.
    I ran a newer Lurhs 40 express (showing my age again) to the Bahamas and found broken welds on the tower and the forward bed splintered in pieces just from slow 4 footers when we arrived.
    2 months later I returned the boat back to St Aug in slow 2 footers. On arrival, the boat was totaled. The factory bought the boat back.

    Been thru heck on or ole bert. Just turned 40 this year. Other than some sea-sick kats, never an issue.

    I,ve been on C Crafts, W Crafts that looked good and watched caps come apart. A NoavTech was falling apart in close 4 footers.
    Tough ole Fleming got my attention one night, not fast but well built and handled some **** well.

    So I'll retype this slower for the reading impaired;
    We use these big names ; Hatteras, Viking or Bertram because we have been on them when the water gets ******. When we want to come home and not have problems, we lean to what we know.
  19. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    By your accounts then all another builders should throw in the towel.
    Even though I have seen plenty of Hatteras’ catch fire, sink with loss of life in Mag Bay, get pounded rounding Point Conception to oblivion not to mention Bertram’s famous 54 blowing its main bulkhead when they first brought one up to the Great Lakes and the much heralded 1988 72 SF fall apart before the Ferretti regime owned them.

    I have said this before, all builders have had their misses, no one is immune.

    Our 44 Pacifica made two Offshore trips to Socorro Island off Mexico with the previous owner, that is no mans land and no H, V or B SF under 50 could ever or did do that. I could repeat that if you need. We fished our 42 Uniflite hard for 10 years went everywhere a 42/ 46 H or V or B, first out of the Harbor, last in, plenty of blue water over the anchor windlass, never knew the difference out on the water amongst the “hallowed” three.

    An older 48 Offshore Sedan can more than deliver on the OP’s wish list.
  20. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Come on, A Hat catching fire is a sea worthy issue? Not knowing the event, I can tell you all about that.
    When a Hat sinks, same reasoning above one line.
    SFB owners, not a Hat issue. Duh...

    I was commenting on old boats (owners budget), not FEBs.

    By your accounts then all another builders should throw in the towel.
    For open water cruising, a lot of them should. Maybe save some lives.
    I remember a big expensive Cruisers Yacht coming apart inbound in the StJohns inlet one day. Came all around from Tennessee new.

    The next life saver would be the owner operator, not purchasing some cheap build and trying to push an envelop where his experience and the boats can not handle any situation.

    I feel the Darwin effect coming on next and a argument defending it.

    Maybe we should of included SOME Uniflights in the list but they are hardy talked about much these days. Some were great boats.