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schooner vs container ship...

Discussion in 'YachtForums Yacht Club' started by Pascal, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    this happened a couple of weeks ago I believe, a historic schooner with 43 people was run over by a container ship...

    Miraculously, nobody died and the schooner was towed to shallow water where she sunk

    Now a video has showed up taken from the deck of the schooner... pretty mind boggling. All they had to do was fall off instead of crossing in front. I love how the skipper sounds five wimpy blasts... twice.

  2. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    A little situational awareness from the schooner captain would have been nice. The larger vessel showed no sign of altering it's course or speed and the schooner could have and should have taken action much sooner to avoid the collision. I wonder who actually struck who. Even if the larger ship is found to be at fault the schooner captain has no excuse. The Rules of the Road is not a suicide pact.
  3. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    Additionally the sailing ship is 136 years old, had just completed a $1.7 million restoration, and was put back into service only two weeks ago.
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Looks to me like they are crossing a ship channel. You can see an outbound Submarine on the schooners port side, and the freighter dead ahead. It looks like the freighter is altering course to port, but hard to tell, not sure why the schooner didn't just turn to port.
  5. Fishtigua

    Fishtigua Senior Member

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    It's in the Elbe, the channel into Hamburg harbour. It's very tight there and the channel marker buoys strictly policed. The ship's captain would have had very little room to move anywhere.

    Once, when delivering a Swan sailboat, we cut one mark by a little. A Port Authority RIB came out, gave us a bollocking and made us turn around and do the channel marker again. Very German.
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    It would have been a tough call for the captain of the ship. Alter course to starboard would have left less room for the schooner to fall off which was their most logical action. But turning to port would reduced the odds of the schooner crossing ...

    It s like facing a lack of jet ski on a Sunday in SoFl. You can take any action because you have no idea why they ll do ...
  7. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    International rules; CBD, narrow channel and crossing the channel? Rule strikes against the schooner.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Although ultimately both vessels are going to have to try avoid the collision. Captain of the ship will have to explain himself in case he didn’t attempt radio contact, didn’t sound five blast and why he didn’t try to altercourse. (Too narrow, too shallow etc)
  9. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't the sailboat veer to port? It seems when they finally did pull on the tiller they tried to turn starboard - worsening the situation?
  10. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    After $1.7m I would hope there was a radio and real horn onboard.
    Suddenly, A 135 year old artificial REEF.
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Any follow up news yet?
    I'm glad all are alive.
    But after the fact, You have to ask, How could this have been avoided.
    I feel a lil less arrogant tude on the schooner and nobody would have gotten wet.
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  12. d_meister

    d_meister Senior Member

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    Lots of discussion on other forums. Most significant is that there's an order shouted to turn to port heard on the on-board video, yet the tiller was swung to turn to starboard. To me, it sounds like " Turn to Port, come quickly" in English (0:37). Not real sure about the "come quickly", though. Or 100% on the "Turn to Port" bit, since it could have been something in German that sounds similar (Was sagen, sie, Herr HTM?) It also appears that the fellow in dark blue (black?) with a ball cap and his back to the video is the one sounding the horn (0:17). One thing I wonder about is the line and blocks attached to the tiller. It seems to me that a fouled line could prevent the tiller moving in the correct direction. at 0:38 you can see gloved hands pulling on the tiller line, which should have brought the tiller to starboard, turning the boat to port, but some of the tackle lines appear slack.
    More will come out about that wrong maneuver, I'm sure.
  13. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Yeah but “Turn to Port, you go to Court”.
    Initially the schooner had plenty of time to turn Port, I sure would have, instead of playing chicken with a bigger, faster and more sturdy ship.
    Having helmed big ships in narrow channels I feel for them not having much choice, but full reverse and early radio comm could have made a difference, (both) the darn schooner kept a steady course, as if he had the “Right of Way”.
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    For a 135 year old design, the tiller and rudder may not swing the way we think.
    Narrow channel and CBD (constrained by draft) Are near automatic assumptions in some ports.
    I can almost see some bow angles changing. Certainly not in far enough distance for the other ship to understand any intentions.
    Sail boat crossing, he fracked up. Arrogant tude lost his ship.

    Un-written rule, Gross tonnage wins. After the fact, complain but your usually not wet when you do.
    SFBs.
  15. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    The wheel on some old ships went the wrong way for sure, but the tiller is a “direct drive”. Looks like the Officer on Watch ordered hard to Port and the crew moved the massive tiller hard to Port, the schooner of course did the opposite .
  16. Chasm

    Chasm Member

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    Since yesterday the Schooner is once again above the water.
    Next up is cataloging the damage and finding out if and how it can be moved safely. The plan is to put it on land at 50er Schuppen for further examinations. 50er Schuppen is also owned by Stiftung Hamburg Maritim.


    As far as Colregs go, careful with them. Nations can and do modify the rules both in coastal waters and inland.
    On the that part of the Elbe the German Traffic Regulations for Navigable Maritime Waterways apply. [English PDF]. All 62 paragraphs, 152 pages of them. These are the coastal rules. Not inland rules which are again different.

    The container feeder definitely went down the river, on the correct -starboard- side of the fairway.
    The initial reports were unclear on the Schooner. The first police report said it also went downriver while other reports said they were tacking upriver.
    With the video upriver seems to be the case. It is perfectly possible to tack upriver as a sailboat. As always the rules of the road apply.

    There are IS screenshots but they are somewhat useless, lots of time between positions and it is not entirely clear who is the second track on them.
    The accident happened roughly where historical ships on a tourist run from Hamburg turn around...
    That would also fit to the time of the accident and insofar as they had the engine on shortly before (Commentary at the very beginning of the video.)

    What did actually happen? The investigators have lots of material to go over.

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