Purchase Advice Needed

NYCAP: You're not hearing the message from "insiders." The potential to learn something new from contributors is what makes YachtForums so great.

Besides the bad stories we know of firsthand or hear that would compel us to give such advice, there's the "cheap insurance" factor. For what the price of any new boat costs, a few thousand for a survey is worth at least hedging your bets as best you can.

Judy Waldman

I hear the message and I learn every day. Our opinion on this is very close (certainly on the value of having a boat surveyed). We just disagree on if the benefit of surveying a new, warrantied, production boat of modest size before delivery is worth the cost. If money is no object then by all means wear a belt and suspenders. If however a few thousand is important I'd prefer to trust the dealer and manufacturer to do their jobs, put together the check list that always generates during the first few weeks and then have the survey done to catch anything that may be developing. Not saying you're wrong, just a difference in opinion. Again though I am not referring to pre-owned nor custom or semi-custom. I'm referring to boats like Sea Ray, Marquis, Carver, Silverton, even small Hatteras; not Burgers, Westships, etc.

a survey is a must on a new boat, except maybe a small boat (under 30) with simple systems. Yes, in a perfect world you'd expec the builder and the dealer to spend a little bit of time testing systems and inspecting the boats. in the real world they don't.

just browse the web and see how many owners of mid size production boats are complaining about warrenty issues that drag on and on and on... Most of these could be caught by a survey and a good shake down run.

as to the original question, I find a flybridge to be worth the extra height. Many benefits incl. extra seating and open air, but most importantly better views which is very important in some areas like in the bahamas where you need to read the water. On most Coupes/express, the cockpit is very hot because of reduced ventilation. Teh flybridge solves that.

My concern with IPS are reliability, I dont think there is enough data in to really make the call on that. I'd be concerned abotu getting them repaired or serviced in the bahamas or many out of the way locations on the US east coast. Great if you run the boat near a service center, otherwise, any yard in the world can work on a straight shaft and prop.

And don't overlook the savings you get when buying a recent but used boat... there are some great deals out there on boats under 5 year old which will be just as reliable...

To Survey or Not to Survey, THAT is the Question

I expect everyone is talking about a hull survey and not an engine survey, if considering a new boat. In any event, according to my experience this past August in FLA, each will cost <$2000, < 1% of your purchase, To put it in perspective, you will spend more than that when you fuel up ! Good luck and hope you end up with the boat of your dreams.

Actually, I read it as a full survey; mechanical and hull. I saw a lot of new Sea Rays be sold and can't remember seeing it once..

I would recommend a hull survey on a new boat, but not an engine survey. The engines get a survey from the engine dealer when they are put in service (at least CAT and MAN does) by the new sales dealer called an engine startup and a seatrial is done at this time and everything analyzed in order for the warranty to be valid.

The real value of a survey on a new production boat is called leverage.

It is much easier and more efficient to get discrepancies resolved, issues corrected and even improvements made while the money is in YOUR pocket than when it gets into the builder's hands.

For some strange reason after closing, phone lines into the builder can become garbled and even go unanswered.

The survey is money well spent to assure contractual compliance and ethical correctness using unbiased, third party experience and expertise.

I understand the position advocating hull surveys on new production boats (although I don't necessarily agree with it's value). I also note the backing off on the idea of a full mechanical survey (So now we're talking about $2,000 plus a second $2,000 at 8 weeks instead of $4,000 & $4,000). But Let me continue to play devil's advocate a bit with 3 questions because I believe this discussion is educational. 1) Why did it not catch the problems on this 63' Bertram as I'd assume the purchaser of such a boat would know to have it done? http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/b...tram-63-a.html?highlight=Bertram+Delamination
2) On what percentage of new, production boats in the 50' range have you seen purchasers buy a hull survey before taking delivery, and 3) How often did you see things found that weren't readily apparent and would not be found easier after several weeks of use?

i agree about imiting a new boat survey to hull only, not an engine survey since the hull survey will cover the engine isntallation anyway. wiring, exhaust, mounts, shafts, etc...

we also know that a survey cannot catch everything, incl.some lamination issues.

Now, as to your last question, apparent to who? the owner? as you've said many times in other posts, how many owners can really see the things a professional (whether a surveyor or often an experienced captain) will see?

I always recommend having a knowledgeable person with you who has no dog in the fight to help you see past the rose colored glasses, but that didn't really answer the questions. I'm trying to determine if this has in fact become an industry-wide practice and if it is actually a worthwhile expenditure.

To Survey or not ...

The only way to conclusively know if it is a worthwhile expense is if no survey was done and a problem comes up. Then Mr. Cooper will wish he had spent the money. Like any insurance, you hate to pay as you go but you only realize it's value when you need it. (I am NOT in the insurance business ) As I said above, within the context of purchasing the boat, it is an insignificant expense.

I know many people who own 50's that can afford to pay the note and expenses, but do not consider an unnessecary expenditure of $2,000 insignificant. Remember, whether the problem shows up at delivery or any other time within the hull warranty he is still covered for the repair. This is why I'm interested to find out if it is considered current industry standard practice and how often it actually had an effect. Any surveyors out there that can answer this? Any owners out there who have gotten surveys before taking delivery of new production boats and did those surveys show anything that affected the sale?

I have dealt with the commissioning of many a new boat (mostly semi custom) and I would say that about 75% of them had a pre-purchase survey. One reason for doing the is obvious in that you identify problems in advance, but another good reason is that you a little leverage with the dealer as far as getting warranty items taken care of before the final payment takes place.

As long as the terms "value" and "costs" are being bandied about in this thread, and the central issue is surveying the hull & systems prior to vessel delivery to the client (not the engines, since the distributor's start-up inspection took care of that), one needs to consider the economics of the situation.

I am sticking my neck way out there with an outrageous claim: most [production] builders of 40'-70' + or - complete a boat and hand it off to the dealer who hands it off to the retail client replete with survey issues. That was my experience from years ago at the factory level, but I know that has not changed greatly.

So. Client accepts boat from dealer and these issues, some unimportant, and some otherwise, surface over time. Client brings these to Dealer's atention who fixes them--or most of them--and it's never a fun process. Now, it gets interesting. Dealer has a yard rate of, say, a hundred bucks an hour. If you think that the factory reimburses the dealer for that amount, have I got a bridge for you.

Fast forward...

Client buys & sells a number of boats over the years and understands the game. He "gets" boats. He decides to take advantage of a great deal on a boat that is coming up on a birthday, i.e., the boat has been sitting for the better part of a year. You can see where I'm going with this...

The Prudent Client knows that a proper survey is paramount. The factory/dealer people have a vested interest in quickly--before ol' Henry changes his mind--fixing the stuff that was wrong from the get-go as well as the stuff that just happens to boats over time. Henry avoids the initial new boat glitches...well, they're minimized at least...has peace of mind that he can, with confidence, head off to Bimini..and life is good.

Thoughts?

Agree with you completely for semi-custom, but that is not the question. A custom or semi-custom, limited production, 80' or 200' yacht We all know that you follow those through construction. The original poster had inquired whether he should have a survey done on a NEW 50' Marquis, Sea Ray or Neptunis. He was told YES, initially to a full survey but then some back peddling to a hull survey. My questions were: "2) On what percentage of new, production boats in the 50' range have you seen purchasers buy a hull survey before taking delivery, and 3) How often did you see things found that weren't readily apparent and would not be found easier after several weeks of use?"

Thought: It's a boat and it will break. At the end of the first 8 weeks there will be a check list of warranty items to be fixed and most will have been missed during the survey when the boat was brand new because most hadn't been pushed and had no tell-tale signs. Thought: Dealers hate doing warranty work because it's low or no profit work. Thought: It's better to buy a boat that's a couple of years old so that the 1st owner already fixed most of the new boat bugs. Thought: Always have a complete survey done on a pre-owned boat and after about 8 weeks of use on a new boat.

I’m not in the Industry, but from an outsiders point of view, it seems ridiculous having to spend $2K - $4K just to make sure that the yacht you paid over a million for is seaworthy and has undergone the expected quality control inspection prior to hand-over.
One can only hope that this precautionary measure doesn’t apply to all builders, and although certain details always get overlooked regardless of product, the warranty program is not a charade.

I am sticking by my original and unchanged recommendation of having a complete survey performed on a production, semi-production, semi-custom, or custom boat of any size or type.

I can not state facts or percentages, but I offer that free advice to every client who is considering the purchase of a new yacht (pre-owned surveys are a no-brainer). I frequently get the courtesy call of "you were right." I know of too many horror stories on well respected, well known production yachts to chance playing the odds game.

Having had bad experience as a purchaser of new boats and representing clients who have had not so kindly experiences, it's not even a question of how long the warranty arguments endure and what they entail, but the time and energy lost and loss of vessel usage arguing about items that could have been foreseen, forestalled, or walked away from before the final acceptance.

Mechanicals too. So what if the engine is under warranty. Let my surveyor find an installation problem, mechanical fault, or malfunction before I hand over the final check. I'll place my bets on another horse and leave the problem boat for someone else.

Judy Waldman

What all boats need for a sea trial:
http://www.toughboats.com/video.cfm?fullscreen=1&filename=Toughboats_BubbaCRevLegal

Judy, I know that your’ looking after the best interests of your client and also covering yourself by suggesting a survey on “every boat” be it new or used.

But, one must wonder about today’s quality guidelines and the integrity of the Builders that showcase all these beautiful ships.
As noted in an article…
U.S. recreational boating sales have shown a nearly 30 percent drop in the past three years, with more declines expected in 2009, the magazine reported

The other things that comes to mind; do Brokers also insist on a client getting an independent survey when selling a new boat from a shipyard they represent, and also, do independent Brokers receive a “referral fee” from surveyors.

It would be nice to hear from some of the many builders that are members here and their opinion on quality control.