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Proteksan-Turquoise YOGI superyacht sinking investigation

Discussion in 'Turquoise Yacht' started by Marmot, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    If no one knows what the pretty lights are for and what they mean, all the sensors and indicators in the world are nothing more than decoration.

    If no one knows what to do when their world goes sideways then there isn't much that technology can do to save them.

    Maersk ships have 13 trained and qualified people, Yogi might have had 2 but, judging by the few reports out there and their CVs, neither of them knew much about the boat.

    The French will never, ever, admit a failure of their licensing or training system. They will never, ever, allow the world to think that a French crew could have any responsibility for a situation that took 8 hours to sink a boat.

    I suspect January 15 will come and go just like the rest of the "deadlines" for news and reports about this incident. I think there are a lot of people who just want this to go away and charter guests who might be victims of the same problem, and crews who need to know what happened so they can prevent it from happening again simply don't count.
  2. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    At sea when things go wrong it can lead to tragic results.

    As I remember here the boat sunk but there was no loss of life as a Coast Guard helicopter rescued everyone on board. So no matter how many valuable works of art... that made it on the boat considering most real valuable works of art would not be risked on a boat... AND no matter how new or expensive or sink proof the vessel... SIMPLY THE VESSEL SUNK... that is not a tragic event.

    As to crew training some comments...

    Now over forty years ago I was in the American Navy primarily because of my interest in Physics and Nuclear Engineering and partly due to family obligation... so went into the Nuclear Engineering field. Qualified in and stood every watch station through Engineering Watch Officer... assigned as an instructor for a time... assigned in charge of a Reactor Electrical Plant for a time... assigned to the staff for a "refueling" of a nuclear plant... assigned to a new construction prototype nuclear plant as build staff... assigned to new construction nuclear boat while in the shipyard through first year of operation. Several of the assignments required the "Kindly Old Gentleman" to do the selection... which could be highly interesting and instructive in itself.

    Everyday in ship/boat/plant operation, and I mean everyday, extensive training was practiced. The crews were highly intelligent, trained, qualified and experienced. As an example, on young man got into trouble after "Nuc" school while undergoing the initial practical training at the training reactor... about 3/4 the way through that qualification... about 4 years later I he walked up to me while I was at the Norfolk Naval Base in transit asking if remembered him... YES... and he explained after he was "kicked out" he had been assigned to the crew of a rust bucket destroyer in the Red Sea... turned out it was a god send to the ship and in less than a week he was Main Propulsion Assistant to the Chief Engineer and ended up training the engineering crew how to safety and reliably operate the plant.

    Guess what... despite all the training... all the money.... more than the cost of training Naval Aviator... for each nuclear qualified man enlisted... officer... through initial qualification to get assigned for is actual job in the fleet...

    ACCIDENTS AND MISTAKES STILL HAPPENED.

    And... despite extensive... engineering... planning... risk assessment... statistical analysis... careful construction... all the quality review in the world...

    FAILURES... STILL HAPPENED...

    And... despite all the investigation and care... incidents and accidents... often were not made public... or known outside those involved.
    Why... perhaps it was...:
    reputations... for the good of the service... careers... national security... or whatever but plainly...
    but it really is people hate to fess up and take the blame.
  3. Felipe

    Felipe Senior Member

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    Marmot, I agree with you, Yogi's disaster doesn't seem to have had the wake-up call effect on the industry it should have had. Unfortunately, another disaster with the loss of live may be needed, one that mainstream media picks up seriously and forces a reaction from everyone, like in so many other instances. Then, reports will be produced in weeks, not months, and everybody will be talking about their new plans to avoid what happened. It's sad, but it's not about common sense, but the amount of preassure you apply that will produce change.
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Karo, Are you suggesting that training is a waste of time and does not lead to a reduction in accidents?
  5. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Yeah, that reads like the "sh*t happens" explanation is all anyone really needs.

    I suspect the Navy, particularly the nuke Navy, doesn't subscribe to the same approach to safety and accident investigation.
  6. 84far

    84far Senior Member

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    Even if there's only 2 crew on the boat that were qualified, those pretty little lights should be on the bridge... where those 2 are...? Surely it's not nuclear physics, even for someone who hasn't been at sea...

    It also sounds like this might go back to the people who selected the crew... might be them who is liable for the f@#kup...?

    Far
  7. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Crew 5
    People who selected the crew 1
    yard/warranty paint 0
    build/design 0
  8. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    No... simply that no matter what accidents will still happen... and failures of equipment and safety systems will still happen... and crews will still make mistakes... all despite all the care in the world.

    As that is the point... and in that the dilemma we all face is that when the penalties legal, financial and personal (career) are great enough...

    The human approach is always to cover up...

    whether that is by being able to make it so "it never happened" or by hiding out the truth behind a wall of bureaucracy... actually serves no one, not the community and not society as a whole.

    That is the frustration expressed in this thread... knowledgeable people... know that only by full disclosure and full investigation and disclosure of that investigation can accidents really be prevented. You cannot train, prepare, design or predict for what you have no knowledge.

    It is really a question of honor that people do the right thing as without that everyone is in peril.

    All of human endeavor and progress is based on the mistakes of the past and learning from them.
  9. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    In Rickover's time there was full accountability... I doubt that is still the case.

    But I need to qualify that... still things were covered up... from those on the "outside"... but the service quietly learned from them... meaning corrected without fuss.

    Personal mistakes were dealt with without prosecution or fuss by simply and quickly the "KOG" removing the problem... sometimes to the frustration of the JAG Corps... or Navy for that matter. He often was criticized by the Navy Brass for wanton "destruction of the best of the best" and "destroying careers". Technical flaws in equipment and training were simply fixed with no fuss as a matter of course. But it was an apolitical and at the same time totalitarian oligarchy protected by political power and national security... something the larger Navy was not... ! Ultimately, that protected situation eroded with Rickover's increasing age and loss of political protection... but it worked very well for the long time it lasted.

    The end came with Sec. of Navy Lehman persuading Pres. Reagan that Rickover was a determent to the service and the United States. It happened over two Fleet Ballistic Missile Submarines nearing completion at the Electric Boat Works... but each with literally every structural weld in the pressure hulls grossly defective... and covered up by the shipyard and corruption. Basically to fix the problem required the total disassembly and rebuild of two compete submarines... at a cost greater than the original construction budget. To Rickover it was simply a safety and a quality issue... to the Sec. of the Navy it was a control of the service issue and wresting that away from an idealistic but diminished patriarch.... to President it was a matter of needing the submarines no matter what to defeat the Soviet threat. Rickover lost... .
    Why... is simply he believed the shipyard should pay for "their errors and misdeeds"... and correct the problem. Ultimately, it cost the taxpayer a few billion out of pocket... and the rat who ran the shipyard ran off to Greece to a lavish retirement... possibly with Uncle Sam turing a blind eye.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2013
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Here we are on the last day of what any reasonable person would consider the "middle of January" and surprise surprise surprise ... not a peep or a peek from the French on the Yogi sinking report.

    Oops, late breaking news!

    "Investigation M/Y YOGI : final phase of the consultation; final report expected mid-February 2013"


    Yeah, and the check is in the mail. Does anyone else think this is a slap in the face of the commercial charter yacht industry? It stinks worse than an over-age Pont l’Eveque.
  11. joyful

    joyful New Member

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    Just been told by the French that report will now be published mid-February. I think they might be giving us all the run around.
  12. Jack Eisenbahn

    Jack Eisenbahn New Member

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    I wouldn't be surprized either, remembering another example: it took almost 10 years to lift the cover-up of the Concorde disaster.
    The more recent AF 447 Rio Paris disaster is still not cleared up either, although the matter of the defective speed sensors has been clearly established, even before the accident!!

    Typical French denial (cover up?) attitude at the highest level!

    So sad as there are some fantastic creative talents in France, including in engineering of all kinds on land, sea and air.:(

    Of course when you dig further in the matter you discover that Air France president, the director of the French Commercial aviation and the head of the BEA (French equivalent to NTSB, at least in its definition...:rolleyes:) were all classmates and good buddies.:eek:


    Of course let's not forget the personality of Yogy's (former) owner, a media mogul, well connected with the political establishment...

    Nuf' said?
  13. twnich

    twnich Member

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    Absolute nonsense.

    You may not like the findings, but the BEA has released an extensive final report.
  14. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Ok... It's past my bed time...

    Well it usually indicates when "the report" gets delayed that there are serious or sensitive issues... and time is needed to figure how to handle them.

    Perhaps you guys are right to be concerned about a cover up.
  15. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    The IMO database still has nothing about the loss. It has been well and truly covered up.

    France and the IMO should be ashamed but I don't think those people are any more susceptible to feelings of shame than they are to acknowledging their responsibility to protect the people who leave port on a commercial yacht.
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Maybe the French Navy took it out, as a sign to the others who are trying to take their wealth out of France since the higher tax rates! LOL
  17. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Considering that YOGI had an all French crew and was literally the flagship of French yachting as the first "megayacht" to sail under the French flag, one would think that the French maritime authority would be delighted to blame this on the builder, class (which for reasons we will never know was not BV, the French IACS member) the quality of Greek weather reporting, sea monsters or anything other than something that pointed back to them. This certainly does make it look like it has a "French connection" to manning, training, or other crew issues.

    In any event, the silence is a condemnation of both the IMO and BEAMER. It should be a warning to anyone who considers registering a commercial yacht in France, chartering a French flagged yacht or employing French licensed senior officers. That is a broad brush condemnation of the French maritime authorities and the entire French maritime system but until France delivers a comprehensive report to the people who actually operate yachts and those who charter them, there can be no other conclusion than a massive failure of French competence to operate that class of yacht.
  18. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Common topic of discussion around the villa... as is bolting it to the pier!
  19. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

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    Oh well, at least they were not using lithium ion batteries, or were they ?? they just sank, did not have the luxury of a grounding.
    However we do have ultimate faith in the TSB and the FAA to make sure we all travel safe in the skies.
  20. bee

    bee Member

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    Just a quick note to say that I believe Belle France ex Cacique now Calixe was the first major private yacht to sail under French flag.