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Proteksan-Turquoise YOGI superyacht sinking investigation

Discussion in 'Turquoise Yacht' started by Marmot, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Thanks... anyway woke up very tired but being old cannot get back to sleep... might as well just stay up and comment here... and go surprise everybody and go to early mass or something... a rare truly occurrence!

    Kafue... you have found the weakness in both the French governance, legal system... and importantly the weakness with this report. Despite all the equalitarian rhetoric and attempts at removing the the effects of privilege based on position, in France and elsewhere, the rich, powerful and most importantly politically connected are able to subvert the system... overcome the intention of the law. Maybe more or less than elsewhere.

    I truly think that is what has happened here too. And, agree with your assessment, Kafue.

    I should care but not being French by birth cannot get too excited about it all as far as the justice aspect goes. When the right people are involved you cannot expect that...

    But what upsets me is that the lessons learned that could have happened from this incident are unknown. I would hate to see another boat sink from the same cause which could be prevented it the issues were made known to the public or at least the community. Particularly as next time there may be lost of life... or it might be my boat or yours.

    I suppose none of this matters if the owner had his own boat sunk or the crew was stupid and sunk it due to incompetence. Why? Few of us would sink our pride and joy OR hire ***** to run and take care of it. If that was the case maybe the people in charge of the report thought what does the truth matter if someone connected and powerful is involved and was either corrupt enough to sink his own boat or stupid enough to hire unqualified crew. Perhaps, whosoever is above the law is also above concern... particularly if no one was hurt or died.

    Nice to hear my simplifications and idealistic explanations entertain.



    I suppose the female mammary gland comment is blanked out!
  2. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    The first French flagged charter vessel in a very long time. Sinks under mystery while still in new condition. Nobody can explain why she's gone.
    I am feared that we will never know the truth.

    I also know that it will be a long long time before any yacht is ever chartered flying a French flag again.

    We also have learned how to get rid of a yacht without much of a muss.

    ,rc
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    You've got a good point there. When it comes time to get rid of a white elephant, reflag it, re-crew it, and sink it. With the right flag and a crew certificated by that flag it's a slam dunk, no questions asked, no finger pointing.

    I think that is the "lesson learned" from this atrocity.
  4. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    True, and due to the commercial exemption... no VAT!

    Usually us snailboaters end up with the white elephants... but are too true blue stupid, stubborn and lazy to slam dunk sink them.

    And, besides we end up paying the VAT as landlubbers don't like chartering a slanty, slippery deck, weather dependent snails to impress clients and the jet set with tiny saloons and lots of things to trip you overboard.
  5. cognitoo

    cognitoo New Member

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    LoL ... love it
  6. Felipe

    Felipe Senior Member

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    Another country,at least another developed country, would have understood early on the need to clarify the Yogi sinking, but not France. Like we have just seen in this very same thread, the concept of globalistion is one they hate and fight against, and always end up loosing. What a show they are putting up with their last 2 nominees to the IMF! As always, they will certainly pay the price of misshandling their flag registry, but will never understand what happended to them.
  7. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Be careful Felipe, the french Mirages fly very close to Ibiza on their way to Mali:D
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    That is a nice thought but, quite frankly, the concept of "justice" and "fair play" is a modern myth - at least so far as superyachts are concerned.

    Flag and class have created a cash cow by developing special "yacht" standards and statutes. They will go to great lengths to avoid an owner jumping ship to another provider of paperwork. The number of yachts, however, is so microscopic that flag will never take a stand that might jeopardize its standing with other flag states in international forums such as IMO.

    There is a political process in the IMO and maritime administrations that is exactly the same as we see in the US Congress or other governments ... it is based on mutual benefit and compromise, not right or wrong or what might protect those who placed their trust in those who are in a position to do what is right.

    What do you think would happen if a registry with a large population of superyachts under its flag imposed sanctions on French flagged yachts and French certificated crews?

    Yogi is a glimpse behind the curtain.
  9. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    Ultimately, these organizations are good old boys clubs which operate on symbiotic relationships... that do four important things:

    1. Protect the organization from criticism on the most fundamental level to those running and involved in the organization from any results criticism and responsibility in operating the organization in order to continue there lives as they know them now in comfort and protection.

    2. Protect the owners from criticism and responsibility as to operation of their yachts and lower insurance rates.

    3. Protect the insurers from criticism and larger liability when accidents happens which saves them money... which is passed through to the owners.

    4. Protect the public officials and governments under which they are sanctioned from criticism and responsibility for relations of private parties in exploitation of the marine resources of the country... ultimately this enhances the economy of the countries involved.

    The choice of the flag state and attaching sanctioning organization is fundamentally both and economic and liability decision on part of the owner. The hired legal and management of the yacht usually make recommendations to the owner during the acquisition process of the yacht. For the one paying the bills, ultimately, the costs and liabilities are paramount. The nostalgic considerations of heritage and country are very much secondary as the yacht is business... even if it is a huge bottomless pit of losses. Getting to the point of being able to afford that pit the owner learns to make smart economic choices even in losing situations.

    In my personal experience it works this way... the advisors and I discuss things and make the best choice based on that matrix... then I go home. When the question comes up at home or when the first visit is made to the now flagged and sanctioned yacht... comment is made by those in the family which make life fundamentally happy, and it is then discussed on considering the nostalgic aspects. The details of that and its results are a private matter... much like the yacht sinking here.

    So one learns... the yacht is a private toy for enjoyment by those that can afford it, and the bottomless pit is just a little wider than it seemed and that needs to be remembered before stepping up to the edge to see the bottom.
  10. ArcanisX

    ArcanisX Senior Member

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    I just had my mind blown.
    So in France a conviction of manslaughter is a fine, not jail time? :eek:

    Very logical, very legal...
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    So when do we get to hear the truth?
  12. Jack Eisenbahn

    Jack Eisenbahn New Member

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    Think about it this way: the owner in this case has (really) deep pockets.
    Put him in jail it would *cost* money, while a fine *brings* money in!

    Very logical! (Well... for some kind of logic!)
  13. Trafalgar

    Trafalgar New Member

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    owner's news

    :mad:

    Last news
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/w...s-loreal-heiress-under-guardianship.html?_r=0
  14. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    That article is quite dated and precedes the sinking of YOGI.

    The mental condition and ability to recall things of an Alzheimers and Dementia sufferer can vary from one day to the next, there can also be a catastrophic deterioration over the course of 17 months so who knows what the ladies condition is these days.

    It does say that the money loaned to the Owner of YOGI was repaid so it remains to be seen if this was the only sum she was diddled out of.
  15. Trafalgar

    Trafalgar New Member

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    fresh news

    Sorry K1W1,

    Updated news
    Unfortunatly in french
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Post it if you like.

    If it is too complicated to understand with my limited French I can get someone else to read it to me or use a translation program
  17. Trafalgar

    Trafalgar New Member

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  18. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    The owner of the sunk boat, Yogi, has been indicted for the misuse of funds of Liliane Bettencourt by fraud in the amount of 143.5 Million Euro. His spokesmen have said this is unfairly based on the sole accusation of a Mr. Gentil.

    He has bigger problems now than his boat sinking.

    Understand in France the the investigating Judge (who will preside at the trail) undertakes criminal investigations. And, that judge has found enough evidence to refer the case to the state prosecutor for putting forth an inditement and resolution at trial.

    Basically, it is alleged he stole money by deceit of fraud as a trusted advisor from an very old sick lady living in Neuilly, the tony area of Paris, who he had obligation to protect.

    Toast... !
  19. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    In the NYT Article I said was dated it says he repaid the money immediately.
  20. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    That NY Times article was dated in 2011... the last article I was referring to was Feb. 19, 2013 web information from the French equivalent of the AP wire... APF from the newspaper Le Monde (The World).

    I was simply explaining to the anglo speakers what the meaning of the Feb 2013 article was and the proceedings under French Law that lead to it.

    In more explanation:
    In France the man is considered innocent until convicted as to actions of the law and court proceedings. In the public sphere he is protected by the law from undue or malicious disadvantage by simply being indicted this includes statements in comment of opinion in the public forum. He is allowed and his dignity is protected by the law.

    In America and England to more or less extent being a public figure or even private citizen placed in the public eye he has no such protections as the rights of free speech override his right to dignity and they do not so much look on it as presumption of innocence... as that is considered a fundamental right in the Anglo world so whatever is said is pretty much OK. In France, it is more like or thought of that he is as he was and to be treated as he was before the indictment, and which means treated as any other citizen under the law not convicted or indicted.

    So when the article is written as is done in France it is considered insipid and having no real meaning or implication of guilt in the Anglo world.
    After coming to France as an American it took me a long time to understand the French perspective on literally everything. Just like the comments when I talked about Tom Perkins manslaughter conviction. I think it is you can never really understand or be French unless you are born and raised there.

    As to presumption of innocence in France being the same as in the Anglo world... it is not. I really don't quite fully understand that... as it gets tied in with legal truth... and the rights of the people and state... as to the legal truth... which appears to me (not being a Francophone... shorthand for not being a natural born to it French speaker and therefore born into French society) both non adversarial and somewhat indifferent to the individual. All I know really is like Tom Perkins situation... 'those **** judges knew I was guilty when I walked into court... and the jury follows suit'.