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Posting warnings about crooked people in the marine industry?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Matt46post, Dec 25, 2019.

  1. Matt46post

    Matt46post Senior Member

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    There is a really crooked fraudulent marine surveyor in the San Francisco Bay Area that I would like to warn people about but not sure where to post it
  2. captainwjm

    captainwjm Senior member

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    Probably an appropriate question, but kind of odd to post it on Christmas morning.
  3. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    "Crooked fraudulent" is seldom appropriate terminology for a forum like this. If one asks about surveyors in an area it is generally fine to post that you do not recommend a specific one based on a poor experience. It's also fine to comment in general about a bad experience without mentioning the specific surveyor and sometimes even to go further with an experience. However, "Crooked Fraudulent" accusations are those you should take to courts or law enforcement. Those are very serious charges and beyond those of just giving poor service and rarely are they provable but, if they are, a public forum isn't the place to do so. As an added comment, using such terms in social media or a public forum or even a review site can subject you to personal liability and risk. Better just to stick with absolute facts, not inflammatory terms. And, if a law has been broken in your opinion, then seek retribution in the appropriate way.
  4. Matt46post

    Matt46post Senior Member

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    Thank you for the advice , I did get a 12 month commitment from the Magazine Yachtsman and Latitude 38 to run a warning/ caution add in their classified adds
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Frankly, before I'd do so, I'd get advice from an attorney. When you start running such an ad, you put yourself at serious legal risk. I also think an ad crosses the line from wanting to advise people to vengeful and vindictive. At that point, it starts to say more about you than it does about the surveyor.

    You're wanting to destroy a business at this point and that has real legal consequences. It crosses beyond freedom of speech. Ask the lady in Dallas who launched a social media campaign against her wedding photographer. The photographer sued and won $1.08 million in the defamation lawsuit.

    Crooked and fraudulent are words that can't be proven on a forum, just in a court of law, and until someone has been found guilty in a court of law of being crooked and fraudulent, using such terms is a very dangerous thing. Must be very careful to state only provable fact and otherwise make it clear other things are just opinions. Fraudulent is not an "opinion" type word, but a legal term.

    I personally doubt that you have any evidence of fraud. You probably have a survey where the surveyor didn't do an adequate job. That happens all the time, but unless you have proof that the surveyor didn't do a survey and still charged you for one, didn't even go to the boat, then you don't likely have fraud.

    You really need to rethink your entire approach to this. Any ad or post you make will be a reflection on yourself. Why not have a short consultation with a lawyer and see if you have a legal case? Otherwise, take your own blame for a poor choice of surveyor and be more careful next time.
  6. gsholz

    gsholz New Member

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    This is the second forum I see your post. Be very careful. Listen to the advice above.
  7. MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

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    Interesting I have seen the same post on Trawler F. but poster is listed from Texas. Interestingly similar screen names but different home States. Hmmm.
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    No, posted there as Mattie69 from Sausalito. Or did he change it after you pointed it out?
  9. MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

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    No , similar names Matt46post on this site, Mattie69 on the other.

    Perhaps the op can "splain" this?
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I hope not. I hope the op calms down, breathes a bit, then posts coherent well thought through posts without using names and drops his thoughts of ads.
  11. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    I smell a scorned woman....... Been bit by one or two. You really fine tune your red flags after that....
  12. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You think a scorned man is any different? I don't.
  13. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    They surveyor question is always a tricky one. You have to look at what he signed up for, what the contract states and what his stated exceptions are.

    IMO they are there to capture known or obvious issues, some can go to deeper levels than others, but basically give an overall ESTIMATE of Sea worthiness. They are not experts in everything and can’t be expected to be as such. If they don’t have access to everything or can’t rip apart a boat (,on your dime) to get to remote areas, they can not comment on what they can’t see.

    If you want an expert opinion on an engine, a structure, a generator, an electrical system, a paint/finish system, hire a expert in those particular fields as well as a marine surveyor. The Survey report is necessary for Insurance/banking purposes and a general hit list at time of purchase, but what are your expectations, especially if the boat in question may be quite old or fairly unknown and built in limited numbers, something one would consider “obscure”?

    Take a look at the money - a surveyor gets a fixed (small) fee that is usually no where near the broker(s) commission or the sellers price or the yard bill for the hit list work and everyone wants to point the finger at the lowest guy on that financial totem pole. What’s wrong with that picture?
  14. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    Hmm, you have a point. How about: "Angry ex...." ?
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Whisky Tango Foxtrot
    13 post later, not a clue what the complaint is about.
    Can you post what happened and just call him Mr X??
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree, post a description of WHAT HAPPENED, with the surveyor as Mr. X.
  17. Oscarvan

    Oscarvan Senior Member

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    Again, this may well be a character assassination mission for other reasons.
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    We will know and call BS.
    If a good post, the good investigator will have a lead.
    This needs to be a victim post and not second hand garbage what happened to a friend or guy in next slip.
    Facts and not hear-say.
    Not use the real name or hint towards it.
    As my bud used to say; Just the facts mam..
    If good with da boss, Matt can go ahead here.
    Da boss can over rule all and scratch this thread per his discretion any time.
  19. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    The OP has posted well before, not getting too much love from this tough crowd.

    Everyone just take a deep breath and relax. Merry Christmas
  20. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    I just came through a very similar experience with a surveyor in MD. I was tempted to use similar vocabulary. The only good thing I can say about the experience was that I didn't recommend the surveyor. The surveyor used vocabulary for his findings like "bad wasting," "horrible corrosion." I asked the Buyer to request the audiogauge report that he paid $750 for. Show me measurements of wastage, give me percentages, not subjective adjectives. Then there were things like "the hydraulic crane not proven operable." The Seller asked me what he needed to do in preparation for the survey and one of the things I told him to do was make sure the dinghy has a good battery and clean gas because the surveyor would launch the dinghy and run it. Before haulout, the Seller asked the surveyor when he wanted to launch the dinghy and surveyor said he didn't need to. Later, when on the hard, the Seller asked him if he wanted him to turn on the breaker for the davit and the surveyor asked if it worked ok. Then we get the finding "not proven operable." Then there was the market value. The surveyor came in $250,000 under ask price. I asked the Buyer to request the comparables he used. The surveyor never did provide them. I doubt whether he has a paid subscription to YachtWorld Sold Boats because I sent a dozen comps showing that this boat was indeed a bargain at her contract price, especially for her condition in spite of the surveyor finding 4 "major" items (one being moisture in the stabilizer fins, one needing bottom paint, one being the hydraulic crane, and one being corrosion in the chain locker).

    The Buyer did call several surveyors and when this guy was the only one available during a convenient time-frame, he called other survyors to ask if he was ok and was given the go-ahead. Although the Buyer paid for a 3 day survey, the Seller clocked a total of 11 hours. First was the sea trial, then when the boat was being hauled before lunch, the surveyor told him he was going out for lunch and to call him when the boat was hauled. At that phone call, at 1:00, the surveyor said he would be back in the morning. Wonder what he had for lunch.

    In my subsequent research, I was told that the SAMS logo on his business card might be "old." There were also questions of sobriety. I understand the original poster's choice of words.

    In spite of offers for additional surveys, and in spite of the after-the-fact reports we got back on the surveyor, and in spite of the Seller undertaking repairs on the stabilzer fins and chain locker and further reducing the price of the vessel, the Buyer would never be able to get it out of his psyche that the surveyor said to "run" from the boat.

    The question is why? I can only come up with the surveyor just didn't like the boat or more probably, because it was a demanding Buyer, I think he was afraid of missing something on a complex boat and wanted to be relieved of responsibility.

    I checked with a maritime attorney to see if my Seller has a claim for loss of sale. There is no contract and therefore no breach, but he could sue for something like slander. Nonetheless, a good Buyer who was in love with the boat, a great Seller, and the worst survey I have seen in my hundreds of surveys. It was a lose-lose-lose and I don't know how the surveyor can look at himself in the mirror.

    If anyone considers a survey in MD, feel free to check with me to make sure it isn't this guy.

    Thanks Matt46, I had considered writing a post about this surveyor, and you became my catalyst.

    Judy