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Outer Reef vs Fleming vs Grand Banks

Discussion in 'General Trawler Discussion' started by bclb, Dec 14, 2019.

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  1. Liberty

    Liberty Senior Member

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    I have a Fleming 65. Love it. It is of course quite a bit bigger than a 55. Mate of mine has an Outer Reef 72. They are both lovely boats. Fleming has a lower centre of gravity, and of course you give up space and height for greater comfort at sea. Outer Reef is taller but susceptible to rolling more in large seas. It’s the age old debate of whether you want to be more comfortable underway or have more room when you arrive. Another mate also has a Marlow 66. It has a LOT more room, but the wheelhouse is dreadful. Far too many compromises to get the space. But it’s great fun partying on his boat (and drinking his cellar).

    If I ever had the money, I’d get a Fleming 78. :)
  2. bayoubud

    bayoubud Senior Member

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    We saw a Fleming 65 in Bradenton, Fl, a huge difference compared to the 55. Great boats but I Have to agree on the 55 er being too tight.
  3. EarlGreen

    EarlGreen New Member

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    Does this imply the cabins (incl. heads and showers) also have low ceilings?

    On my last trip we had about 6'3 ceilings "downstairs". After a week I said to myself "make sure the next boat has higher ceilings".
  4. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    The only thing that I was "implying" was that the Fleming 55 doesn't have a stand-up engine room.

    As far as the living areas are concerned, the only thing I have heard is the maximum headroom is 6'6". I wish I could be more specific.
  5. EarlGreen

    EarlGreen New Member

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    The Fleming 55 master stateroom has a 6'4.5" headroom. And the master bed is 64" to 58" wide.

    (According to the boattest.com video, https : //youtu.be/ u2DegMOIxEs.)
  6. FlyingGolfer

    FlyingGolfer Member

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    What difference do you see?
  7. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    I have been looking to a lot of youtube on the FBP yachts, waw the only brand that has explaining video on how there boats act in a real sea conditions, very soft ride in severe conditions.
    Something very special and could be off topic. But for somebody that is looking to travel the world.
    I guess the best boat ever in therms of seakeeping.
    For me out of budget but if you consider Fleming 65, a nice used FBP 64 could be an option.

    You will find a lot of video information in real conditions
  8. EarlGreen

    EarlGreen New Member

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    I have also watched those videos recently. I find the FPB's very interesting, with its different approach.
    However, over my budget as well... Besides, are they as homey as the regular trawler style boats?
  9. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    As for budget year 2013 FPB64 used or for sale at a price below a new Fleming 55. https://www.yachtworld.com/boats-for-sale/make-circa-marine/
    There is a walkthrough video available on youtube
    Salon, pilot area, galley looks very homey. Sleep accommodation could be less but that is very personal. Engine room is exceptional.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I've never been on one. But was docked next to one in the Exumas and also saw it on anchor in the exumas. I can tell you this much, they roll quite a bit at a dock and on anchor when they can't use their paravanes.
  11. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    FBP have fines, if you buy a boat in this price class install zero-speed fins or an additional gyro.
    Any seaworthy long range ship will roll more at rest, they don´t have hard chine.
    This type of boats can heel and still right itself to an angle of more than 140 degrees
    A boat that rolls more can easily be compensated by a gyro.
    Anyhow they don`t roll underway, look to the video´s
  12. EarlGreen

    EarlGreen New Member

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    Yes, the indoor areas look great. But the exterior areas are so much more exposed to the weather and sea. Personally, I'd probably feel more comfortable having pets and kids running around of on a trawler (with its enclosed exterior areas, Portuguese bridge, cock-pit, raised bulwarks etc.)

    (Also, that FPB64 is over my budget too, unfortunately...)

    BTW, how much power does a gyro stabilizer consume, when not underway?
  13. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    For zero-speed not underway) stabilizer i see 3 options.

    I have done some basic research for a 50 to 60 feet boat:
    1. fins with zero-speed option with hydraulic actuators, it consumes way too much
      • NAIAD DYNAMICS made an offer with a 15hp = 11 Kwh electric hydraulic pump
      • Sidepower is better needs a electric hydraulic pump 3.5kw for 0.65m² fins and 4.6 kw for 0.8m² fins
      • Hydraulic system needs cooling (seawater, pump, anodes, maintenance)
      • Needs space for hydraulic tank and pump in engine room
      • Hydraulic systems efficiency is around 50% (used energy vs effective effort) hence it needs cooling = waste of energy.
    2. fins with zero-speed option with electric actuators, very interesting i have offers form CMC-marine and from Humphree.
      • Humphree 0.6 m² zero-speed average condition (25 Amp. at 24Vdc each fin) = 1200 Wh for both.
      • Humphree 0.8 m² zero speed average conditions (35 Amp at 24Vdc each fin) = 1680 Wh for both
      • CMC-marine no information uses the same technic and will be equal to Humphree
      • Fins underway power consumptions is very low around 500W for both can run from main engine alternator.
      • Fins at zero-speed can run from Lithium home battery back a 20 Kwh home battery bank at 80% DOD = 16 Kwh = +/- 10 hours for 0.8m² fins
      • Zero-speed fins don't consume energy in standby, during the night (The sea settle down), now wave = no action = no energy needed.
      • No space in engine room.
      • No Cooling
      • Energy efficiency is > 93%, hence no cooling
      • More or less same actuator size as hydraulic
    3. Gyro, depending on the size of your boat and if the bottom is round or flat (flat -planing hull are more stable but need more force to counteract a wave)
      • Seakeeper S9 = 2200 Wh to 3200 Wh
      • Seakeeper S16 = 2300 Wh to 3700 Wh
        • The Italian brand MC² Gyro vs Seakeeper
          • needs less (no) maintenance
          • is very simple and offers same result as Seakeeper.
          • MC² advantage no seawater cooling wheel and engine are spinning in free-air, Seakeeper need seawater cooling due to Motor en wheel running in a Sphere (seawater,pump, heat exchanger, anodes ....)
          • On-site repair MC² is possible, seakeeper on-site repair of bearings and engine is not possible => needs to go back to factory
          • no hydraulic system MC² uses rack and pinion actuator, Seakeeper uses hydraulic ram, and hydraulic pump
          • MC² Size is smaller than Seakeeper
          • MC² Weight is higher than Seakeeper, MC² spins slower and hence wheel is heavier.
          • MC² needs more power (+25%) due to wheel is spinning in free air
    Gyro vs Fins, a very long debate, but in short
    • Gyro:
      • No external parts
      • Good at zero-speed
      • Less good underway
      • need space in engine room
      • Need spin-up time (30 minutes)
      • Run on battery less evident than Zero-speed fins
      • Runs also when sea settle down, energy, noise.
      • whining noise
      • Refit maintenance (7000 hours) for seakeeper need to go back to factory 7000 hours at 24 hours/day (underway and at anchor during night) = 291 days.
    • Electric Fins
      • Same price as Gyro
      • Very good underway (same as normal fins)
      • They (users) says it is good at anchor
      • no space in the engine room needed
      • no spin-up time
      • Run on battery is possible
      • No whining noise
      • No wave = no action = no energy = no noise
      • External fins
  14. EarlGreen

    EarlGreen New Member

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    Excellent summary!!!

    What about the old statement that gyro stabilizers are for a little faster boats, while fins are for slower boats/trawlers? Is it still true? (Has it ever been?)

    (Note, you mean W not Wh in some places above.)
  15. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    1000 Wh = 1000W during 1 hour, depends how you read.

    Fins are not made for very fast boats (+30 knots) but they are used on normal planing boats.
    Information from Humphree:
    upload_2020-3-3_16-26-19.png
  16. EarlGreen

    EarlGreen New Member

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    E.g. "15hp = 11 Kwh" should be 11kW.
  17. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    Yes correct 15hp = 11 kw
    and if you run it for 1 hour you have 11kwh
  18. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    There are plenty of sea worthy vessels with hard chines, Alaska Crab Fisherman come to mind as well as several trawler designs.

    Hard Chines vs Soft (radiused) Chines is a design choice, for a powerboat, even a long range displacement trawler, I still prefer hard chines for the inherent zero speed form stability at rest.

    Most sailboat designers who venture into powerboat design fall back on their Soft Chine experience, like Nordhavn for example.
  19. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    Hard vs round chine in Following sea
    a Kadey-Krogen video
  20. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    That is more a comparison of their full displacement hull compared to a shallower one, plus a nice bit of marketing hype.
    I have felt the unpleasant "corkscrew" affect on single screw , round chined displacement hulls with shallow transom immersions as well. There a few well known examples for the long range types with transom fixes that never really worked out.