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Outer Reef vs Fleming vs Grand Banks

Discussion in 'General Trawler Discussion' started by bclb, Dec 14, 2019.

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  1. bclb

    bclb New Member

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    Going to get a 55-65 footer. Like the open layout of the OR, but don't have a feel for the reliability, maintainability, durability, or seaworthiness of the OR. Fleming seems to be rock solid on those, but would like to hear comparisons. Marlow not really being considered.
  2. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    My 2 cents

    - Fleming 55, no place in the engine room, i was in the market for a used Fleming 55 i was very impressed until I saw the engine compartment
    - GB outdated design unless to buy a new, in the EU used GB has no value anymore.

    if you need seaworthiness, go see a Nordhavn or Selene. The new Selene 60 explorer will be a game changer.
    I have seen a Selene 62 year 2009, this is a ship not a boat and you can´t compare with GB or Fleming
  3. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Outer Reef is a great seaworthy and well built boat. I would agree on Selene being good but that wasn't what you asked. Fleming, I'd prefer the 58' or 65' to the 55'. Fleming is unbeatable in terms of quality, although not typically a boat one uses trans-oceanic. I do like that you have a bit extra speed with Fleming. Grand Banks is a completely different type boat as a coastal cruiser. Unfortunately, things came mostly to a halt with them and now the line is being totally revamped and the new Grand Banks 60 is a fantastic boat but it's still a coastal boat, just now one with speed and performance.
  4. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    He looks to be interested in boats that can cruise at least 15 knots by the choice of boats, not 10 knots or less.

    The Fleming engine room has not prevented them from putting on thousands of miles of coastal cruising, while the heavy displacement single speed Nordhavn or Selene mass displacement can be a handful for a crew of two when compared to the more maneuverable and nimble Fleming.
  5. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    New or used?
    If going for a new boat, OR is a great choice, but only as long as you are expert enough (and willing to invest a LOT of time) to spec the boat yourself, in fine detail.
    With used ORs, aside from how the boat has been maintained, which is true for any boat, a lot depends on how carefully the first owner dealt with the yard during build.
    For this reason, Flemings (aside from being excellent boats when new) are a somewhat safer buy when used.
  6. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    seaworthiness depends on the cruising plans, and this is the first question one has to ask himself.
    Hours or days offshore.

    And for maintainability the Fleming 55 is the worst i have ever seen, simply not workable to enter the engine room at sea.
    This was the only reason i didn´t buy one.

    Fleming 55 will cruise happily at 10 knots, but yes maximum continuous is 15 knots ... for less than 20 hours.

    In short, to answer the question, first define your cruising plans.
  7. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    What makes you think that bclb didn't?
    It's no secret that heavy displacement trawlers are more seaworthy than semi-displacement boats, but if the OP is only interested in the latter, we should assume that he made up his mind based on his needs.
    BTW, I very much like Nordies and Selenes - and even more some Northern or Delta Marine.
    But not all people appreciate a cruising style that takes forever to get nowhere...
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    For some reason you've chosen to attack the Fleming 55 aggressively, saying it's the "worst you've ever seen". Yet, one could survey Fleming 55 owners and you'd have a very difficult time finding any who didn't love the boat. They've all found ways to maintain it. In 55' with two moderately large engines, generators, watermakers, hot water heaters, batteries, inverters, stabilizers, bow and stern thrusters, the engine room is going to be rather crowded but it's also designed to be workable and Fleming 55 owners find it so. Did you actually talk to any owners of the boat before forming your contrarian opinion?

    As to speed, let's get that right too. Fleming 55's have twin Cummins 500's. Top speed is 18 knots and they cruise comfortably for sustained periods at 17 knots. Yes, it will also cruise at 10 knots or at 8 knots. Fleming is currently building #250 of this model. The center walkway between the engines affords very good space. Accessing the outside of the engines is a bit of a challenge with other equipment but once one takes the steps to get there, the working space is fine. I didn't leave this completely to my memory but just walked through three virtual tours to be sure my memory was accurate. I will say this that many 60-70' boats I've been on could learn a lot in effective use of space from a 55' Fleming. Now for one who wants a little more space, there's the 58' or the 65' but the 55' is the leading selling model and those who have owned it speak very highly of it.

    Now, while it has 2000 nm range at 8 knots, I will say it is not a boat I'd ever cross the Atlantic on. That's not it's normal use. Among the brands the OP listed, Ocean Reef would be far more likely to be used to do so and, in this size range, it's normally used for coastal cruising as well.

    While I respect your decision not to buy a Fleming 55', I just felt a need to balance your repetition of your dislike of it by pointing out you'd be in the great minority in your opinion of the boat.
  9. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    The complaint about Fleming engine rooms is their height, or lack of it.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  10. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

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    Engine Room Height can come with a trade off in form stability and windage in boats under 60 feet.

    I like the trade off as the Fleming has an appealing low profile, easy to board and get around and is easy to maneuver in a blow in close quarters.
  11. Slimshady

    Slimshady New Member

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    Owned a outereef 73, c 18 , boat is well built and jeff stood behind his boats. When I'm in the market for that style of boat I would buy another. She had lots of room in engine room and systems were well laid out and accessible. The Taiwanese yard builds a solid boat, with good fit and finish. Put 1100 hrs on her in 4 years with no mishaps. Hope this helps.
  12. BFOD

    BFOD New Member

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    Thx,

    Some people have problems with reading or it must be my writing skills, sorry I am not native.
    I never said that the Fleming 55 is a bad boat, It was the boat of my first choice.

    My remark was about the maintainability and its engine room. Go inside with hot engines, …. you will burn yourself. Try to access – repair the stabilizers or genset, good luck

    Yes top is 18 knts in flat conditions and with 100% engine load, so that is the way you are boating?
    Go in normal sea conditions and at 85% engine load you end at 15 knts, as stated in my post “continuous speed”, it’s all about reading.

    Most Fleming owners have deep pockets, and in general maintainability it is not there problem.

    bcld asked specifically about maintainability, if you like Fleming and you can afford go for the bigger model.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Fleming does work to keep the air draft on the 55' at 16'. Still, the ER height, while not tall enough for many of us to stand, is very good for a 55' boat and the walkway between the engines quite accommodating. Stabilizers were mentioned and they're fully accessible with nothing in the way. They are intentionally left open. The Outer Reef 58' is not standing height if you're over 6' tall either, with a very similar ER design.

    One just needs to check for themselves, but also talk to existing and former owners.
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Ya think that is what the OP was hoping for??
  15. bayoubud

    bayoubud Senior Member

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    You might want to add the 54/62 Offshore to consider. Many like them better than the Fleming. Similar design and quality, with less exterior maintenance.
  16. leeky

    leeky Senior Member

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    The Fleming 55's engine room height is 5 feet or less depending on where you are in the engine room.
  17. maldwin

    maldwin Senior Member

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    I have never met a Fleming owner who didn’t like his boat.
    Best,
    Maldwin
  18. bayoubud

    bayoubud Senior Member

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    For sure, every one we looked at to buy was in great shape.
  19. Kapn

    Kapn Member

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    All the 55's I've been on have a main service access in the cockpit but there is another access in the galley. I never liked the galley access underway because the off watch crew would wake up startled with the sudden change in noise levels when the hatch is opened.
    The generator was just inside the engine room with good access to it.
    Stabilizers were uncovered, unlike some motoryachts where they get hidden with cabinetry.

    I wasn't aware they were up to hull 250 of the 55 Fleming. I haven't been on some of the newest ones, but I can really tell the difference between the years (they focus on hull numbers) when I go from one to the next.
  20. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Agreed. Rather than covering the fins actuators with some cabinetry, it's MUCH better to leave them fully open for easier visual inspection.
    On the other hand, with fins stabilizers, my personal preference goes towards actuators fully enclosed in their own watertight compartment, because at least they are "hidden" for a good reason.
    But it's a solution that I've only seen in a few custom boats, and not used by any of the yards which are being discussed, as far as I know.