Discussion in 'Broward Yacht' started by Capt Bill11, Mar 31, 2015.
Lewmar C.Q.R. I don't know the rated holding power off the top of my head.
This one is a mystery to me... I saw a bunch of pictures on a "news" page...
I have anchored dozens and dozens of times at Big Majors / Staniel and the holding is excellent. I wonder when this happened as We left staniel last Thursday and spent the night at the exposed Emerald mooring field at Warderick. It was 15 to 20, I doubt it was different jsut 20 miles south.
A front came thru while we were in nassau over the week end, but it was never more than 20kts. Nothing that should throw a boat that siZe tTo the pigs they must have been thrilled thinking gourmet meals were heading their way instead of the typical old lettuce and carrots brought by tenders.
I wonder if if hit anyone on the way, boats that size are usually anchored some distance from the beach and at this time of the year will have quite a few boats between them and the beach. Maybe most were gone to protected spots due to the westerlies...
As to anchoring, I'm amazed to hear comments like above. First, you re missing on some of the best time on th water.
It's been almost a moths since we left Miami and been in the exumas. In a month, we spent 3 nights in nassau, and 3 times 2 days at Staniel, the rest was on the hook. Big oversized anchor (176lbs Bruce for a 70 footer), plenty of chain and reasonably protected anchorages. I sleep very well at night with DragQueen next to my bed. Note I didn't say with a dragqueen in my bed
If the weather gets nasty, usually over 20kte, I will sleep on the couch in th skylounge with the furuno anchor alarm set in addition to my iPad.
i ve never dragged but been awaken by th alarm sounding due to a current or wind shift. If you can't hear an alarm or buzzer, you have no business being on the water.
Anchoring isn't rocket science and just a little bit of common sense goes a long way. This case is jsut weird as there was really no high winds or major storm hitting the area
I did not say it was OK to sleep on watch Ed. What I said was if you can't keep a real watch rotation where different people are up all through the night, getting up periodically or sleeping at the helm of possible is better than nothing. A crew of 3-4 taking care of 6-8+ guests can not maintain a 24 hour watch schedule night after night when they are anchored out night after night. Everbody is already working 16+ hours days day after day as it is.
Like it or not that is the reality in many cases.
As I said, odds are you're going to have some other kind of accident due to sleep deprived crew before you drag up on a beach.
And I'm not making excuses for what may or may not have happened on that boat. Since I don't know what happened.
And obviously you have to keep an eye on the weather for any predicted changes that could occure while you're anchored in such a way that you could drag up on a now lee shore.
But with the proper ground tackle, reasonable use of alarms and common sense you can get a good nights sleep at anchor. Sometimes.
And I don't like that reality, while fully recognizing it is often as you describe. There is something I find so inherently wrong with under staffing for the jobs required and in 16+ hours day after day. It's wrong in this industry or any other. Of course that explains why some boats have constant turnover of entire crews. There are some great yacht owners out there who are a pleasure to work for. But way too much of the industry is as you describe and crews deserve better. They deserve to be treated with dignity and respect and to have reasonable expectations on the job.
It would be most interesting to find out the circumstances of this beaching, but doubt we ever will. That boat should have had a crew of at least six if not seven. I have no idea what it actually had.
I think Some people live in la la land... Should have, could have, more crew, more watch, more ...
Disclaimer, my experience is limited to 7 years of running charters on a 70' boat, not a megayacht. But it s just 2 of us... It would be nice to have a third crew but we simply don't have th extra cabin.
It has nothing to do with dignity, respect, or whatever fancy politically correct words you want to use... I'm sure it's the same issue on bigger boats, she you may have 3 crew cabins and no room for another one
If we were not "happy" working like crazy for a week while on charter we wouldn't be doing it and the day it becomes old is the day we will move on. In then meantime I have no problem working 16 hours. Heck, when I used to run my own business somedays I was working 16 hours... without the view and the fun part.
With all due respect, I don't use those words to be politically correct. I do use them because they're among my core beliefs and values. Similarly, while I respect your view and your right to it, my beliefs on staffing and treatment of crew are no different than mine in any other business.
As to "happy" that's for each individual. Whether those in this industry are happier or less happy than others, I can't say with any certainty. I can say there are many leaving or changing their positions because the expectations and lifestyle are something they no longer choose.
For a 70' boat, I don't find a problem with a crew of two. As to a 130' boat, ours has space for 6 or 7 depending on sharing. But we also allow senior crew to use a stateroom. In fact, right now we have crew in two staterooms. On the other hand, we aren't chartering and don't have 12 guests aboard. Right now it's two owners who also captain, one guest working on her license, and 7 crew members. So our situation is very different from the charter for a week packed full. We previously chartered quite a bit but still never put those type demands on crew.
We recognize however that we're very unique in that we do know how to go to the galley and get a snack or get a drink, we even know how to cook as I grilled the steaks last night for the 10 of us. Ok, guess we're the scourge and evil of yachting trying to ruin it all, but our crew likes us...
i was just told that when the front passed thru here over the week end, winds were higher than expected and gusted up to 45 (again peak gust, not sustained) taking everybody by surprise.
Still no excuse to wake up on the beach with a boat that size unless they had some mechanical issues preventing them to fire up the mains.
You guys are not the norm or even close.
That being said, would like to sail with you: I'll have my steak medium rare, baked potato, and my salad sprinkled with lobster tails and champagne on the side.
Never claimed to be normal but we do have fun...out of the box? Oh we threw the box away. March to a different drummer? We run, don't march and trumpet, not drum.
I believe the staffing is regulated on a charter boat isn't it? The hours are just a reality of this business, but there's a big caveat. It's what we choose to do. I often work 15 / 20 hour days for 2 or 3 weeks, but then I take a few weeks off. It's not hard to throw an extra hour or two on the day to stand watch. That's not breaking rocks with a sledge. It's also why they hire young and strong instead of old and tired though. These days I'm fading by day 10.
"Whether those in this industry are happier or less happy than others, I can't say with any certainty. I can say there are many leaving or changing their positions because the expectations and lifestyle are something they no longer choose."
I think it might not be understood by all, but working boats isn't just a job. It's something you need to do. The guys working the Bearing Sea crab boats don't earn a ton of money annually. They just earn it all in a short time at a totally nuts pace. They need to work that pace and that place. But yes it takes its toll. You see plenty of 60 year old lawyers and doctors, but not many 60 year old deckhands. I'm getting out because my body won't take what I've done to it any more, and I don't like where the business has gone. Not fun anymore. Between the lack of security, the liability, the responsibility, the regulations; I don't recommend people enter this business. Much easier to make your living on land. Yet some people are just drawn to it.
Well, the Maritime Labour Convention establishes rules for commercial boats (only adopted by some flag states at this point) which I see no excuse for all boats not following. Hopefully the convention will be further adopted by more countries. Here is what the relevant section says:
Rest hours: rest hours should be implemented in national legislation. The maximum hours of work in that legislation should not exceed 14 hours in any 24-hour period and 72 hours in any seven-day period, or: at least ten hours of rest in any 24-hour period and 77 hours (rest) in any seven-day period. Furthermore the daily hours of rest may not be divided into more than two periods and, at least six hours of rest should be given consecutively in one of those two periods.
I can't accept any excuse for having fewer rest hours than outlined there. It's time to humanize this industry.
If that's what it says I'm sure it's what's followed by most, but that's for the pretty boats. I work a different end of the maritime industries, and work the hours needed and as hard as we need to get the job done. Maybe older are tougher after all.
I understand you, as many others in thousands of industries, do what you have to do. I see things as an owner and manager of businesses and boats and, as such, I feel an obligation, call it a moral obligation to those I employ. That obligation includes reasonable pay, benefits, hours and work conditions, along with time for their personal lives.
In the interest of safety which was the initial impetus of this discussion, I have participated in studies and tests and I don't care how young one is fatigue is a major safety factor, both mental and physical fatigue. Just the loss of ability to think and function at maximum levels with lack of sleep is major. 16 hour days are the things we see in Chinese clothing factories that we protest and boycott against.
I do realize that I'm helpless in terms of changing or impacting this industry. The most I can do is determine how I handle my boats and treat my crew. But as long as I am a boat owner seeing much of the treatment of crews and the way much of the industry does operate I will speak out against it when confronted. I've long battled such things in other industries from manufacturing to retail. I never thought I'd see the day Walmart would voluntarily raise their minimum wage, but it's happening.
I'm not saying anything negative about those of you working in the industry, but I am speaking negatively about some of the owners. And some of the prevalent practices may or may not have contributed to the event that's the topic of this thread. Whether they have or not in this instant, they certainly could in others.
I think you've read enough of my posts to know that I'm a major proponent for improved pay and working conditions throughout society. I've gotten chewed out right here a few times for my "liberal" leanings in favor of the working men and women. lol. But working 7 days a week , 15 hours a day was normal for most people from the beginning of time until recent times. I wouldn't ask it of anyone, but I can certainly deliver it myself when needed. One of the pleasures of working for yourself and of getting old. You work for the pleasure of the work.
But this is about that boat. I didn't think much of their not maintaining full-time crew, but were they actually understaffed per regulation? I know they did something wrong or they wouldn't have ended up on the beach. But there's wrong and then there's wrong.
I don't know if they're understaffed by regulation. But a boat that size should have a full time crew of 3 minimum just if it's sitting at the dock. 6-7 crew if it's actually being used. Captain, Mate, stewardess, chef, deckhand, and an engineer......
Always have a Anchor watch point blank. Weather happens!