All of this talk about Bertram, got me to thinking about Ocean's, many,many years ago they got a bad rap, and deservedly so. They always provided a lot of bang for the buck, and based on what I'd heard from owners, and press, permanently put a bad taste in my mouth. The last time I went to the FLIBS was about 5 or 6 years ago, and they had all of the SF's at the South end of the show. Somehow I ended up at the Ocean display, and I'm sure a well intended Ocean guy walked up to me, and invited me aboard their newest Flagship. I hemmed and hawed, and tried my best to be polite, but he was very insistent about me "just take a look, I think you'll be very impressed" speech. Finally, I'd had enough, the bow was facing west and the Sun was in perfect position, so I lead him over to the port side and said "Look, what do you see?" "A beautiful hull" was his reply. I then pointed out the you could see print through of the roving through the Gel coat. "Oh yeah, now I see it." Prior to walking away, I told him if Ocean doesn't even know how to lay up a hull...what makes you think I want to see the rest of the boat. To this day, I still don't understand how Ocean stays in business. I guess P.T. Barnum was right...there's a sucker born every minute.