Click for Cheoy Lee Click for Westport Click for Nordhavn Click for Burger Click for Llebroc

Nordhavn Expedition Yacht Fish 75 Sinks?

Discussion in 'Nordhavn Yacht' started by BobbyK, Oct 22, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,320
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    Nordhavn has a well cultivated image that has come to define the brand. That brand image has worked so well for so long that, in my opinion, it has come to imply a superior degree of seaworthiness.

    This incident has highlighted a bit of a disconnect between the cultivated image and the reality. Maybe to some people it is like finding out Rock Hudson was gay (not that there is anything wrong with that) or that John Wayne was afraid of horses. I mean it is supposed to be a macho go anywhere world cruiser that turns out not to handle a real crisis any better than a Bayliner.

    It is marketed as a small ship. It sells for more than many small ships. It is advertised as meeting the "highest international standards and extensively outfitted with the finest equipment" but it turns out the emergency equipment was woefully inadequate for even a much lower rate of flooding. It barely exceeded the minimum equipment standards, and it's questionable whether all the installed equipment could have handled the flooding which was not all that bad if compared to what might happen if the hull was breached in some minor fashion during an ocean crossing.

    No one is saying that the boat sunk because of something PAE did wrong, but the sinking showed that nothing PAE installed would have done much to prevent it from sinking either.

    I think it is just one of those "Tell me it ain't so, Joe!" moments for a lot of us who always thought PAE was just a little bit better than that.
  2. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,436
    Location:
    Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale FL

    My post got clipped some how as I posted it so some of my responce is missing. And now I can't edit it be cause of the odd no editing after 60 minutes rule.

    But I'm not anti Nordhavn. I'm anti bull****. No matter what brand of boat is involved. And having AC bilge pumps with the pumping capacity of most peoples shower sump pumps as your only automatic bilge pumps in a 75' ocean going boat is bull****. And dangerous bull**** at that.

    As far as their culpability in this indecent goes, I can't see how you don't think they have some. They are after all the ones who spec-ed an automatic bilge pump system of so small a capacity that it had zero chance of even slowing down a leak from a 2" hole. And thus some ones pride and joy sank at the dock before any one noticed what was going on.

    So you tell me, how can they not have at least some culpability?

    Anyway, enjoy your Nordhavn. But please take off your rose colored glasses and take a good look at your bilge pump system.
  3. caboken

    caboken New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Seattle, Wa
    Well, technically speaking 'culpability' is a legal term. There are two different answers here. One is whether or not they have done anything legally culpable, and the other is whether or not they have done things in a way that rises to your standard of excellence.

    I believe we have already ascertained the answer to both of these questions. No one has alleged that the pumps are below any maritime standard, and everyone seems to agree that the Nordhavn spec exceeds that of their competitors. However, your standard is higher than that of the standards of Nordhavn's designers, or Steve Dashew, or any of the other competitors. And, you believe that because the industry lags behind your personal standards, any boat manufacturer (which as far as we know might be all of them) are in a culpable position, at least in your opinion.

    All of that said, you are I are not so far apart on this issue. I have never really focused on these pumps, but now that I have, to the extent there are no issues I'm not thinking of, I'll be beefing up my pumps.

    -Ken W
  4. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    13,037
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    I agree with this. Nordhavn portrays an image of a ship designed to cross oceans and they put themselves on the map with their 46' crossing oceans. I see more automatic bilge pump capacity on a 34' searay and that is not saying much.

    For example, the 55' Neptunus I manage has 2- 3700gph auto bilges in the engine room, and 1 3700gph in the lazarette. That is 11,100 gph at the pump. So maybe 8000 gph at the discharges. This boat would not have sank with that kind of leak overnight. A 55' Neptunus is a day boat and not designed to cross any ocean, or anything like that.

    I haven't even seen these bilge pumps used by any manufacturer since the 80's and then hardly ever were they used. I certainly wouldn't want 125 volts AC anywhere near bilge water. That could kill someone.
  5. caboken

    caboken New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    12
    Location:
    Seattle, Wa
    How embarrassing...

    I just checked, and my bilge pumps are 24v

    I'm not sure about the 75. The website does say 120v but your comment about ac wiring rang true, and the 75 spec mentions both 24v and 120v, so perhaps the website is wrong?

    As to the neptunus... I tried to get the specs from the website, but they weren't on the site.

    You can have the last word. I've already said all that I know on this topic.

    Ken W
  6. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    13,037
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    All of the 55' Neptunus have 4- rule 3700gph pumps, for sure. 1 for the foward bilge, 1 3700 fwd engine room, 1 3700 rear engine room, and 1 3700 in the lazarette. The 75' Hatteras I used to run had 4-rule 3700's and 1- rule 2000 which is the same size as the Nordhaven, but certainly not designed to cross an ocean.
  7. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,436
    Location:
    Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale FL
    I don't see were anybody has agreed that Nordhavn specs exceeds their competitors. I have seen no evidence of that one way or the other posted here.
    Although Capt J has shown that a non-competitor beats their standard. At least in the auto pump category. And I can think of several other non-competitors that do as well.

    But what can I say, the lack of adequate bilge pump capacity and the poor or non existent high water alarms I find in most boats drives me crazy. Maybe it's because mine and my owners/guests lives can depend on it.

    Hell, the boat I run has 6 24v Rule 3500s hooked to Ultra Safety Systems auto switches (the only switches worth a **** IMHO) with each switch is hooked to a self powered high water alarm and I still carry a 4" gas powered trash pump just in case.

    But either way, I'm glad you are taking a closer look at your boats bilge pump system.

    Happy cruising.
  8. travler

    travler Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Location:
    roche harbor wa
    MARKETING AT IT'S BEST for nordhvn. look before you buy and really know what you are getting for your money

    cheers travler
  9. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,192
    Location:
    Cold Spring Harbor, NY
    So what the heck are "tuna Tubes" anyway, and what did the installer do wrong? IMHO, that's what sunk this boat.
  10. carelm

    carelm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    412
    Location:
    fairfax va
    As I understand it, they are used to keep bait fish alive while big-game fishing.

    Here is a site that has information on building your own.

    http://www.floridasportsman.com/gear/G_9702_Bait/
  11. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,436
    Location:
    Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale FL
  12. carelm

    carelm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2011
    Messages:
    412
    Location:
    fairfax va
    Based on the nautical-outfitters site, it was a simple install. Drill four holes, mount and seal the tubes and you're done. You're definitely right about the poor install that would allow something like 10,000 gph into the boat.
  13. diesel one

    diesel one New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Melody Jean, N-75-02

    Intresting thread and comments to which I wish to add a couple:
    1. First of all I am not a deep sea fisherman so........why do you want tuna tubes anyway? Isn't that what bait wells are for? Why any more holes in the hull than absolutely needed? Or am I missing something basic?
    2. Marketing: In one of my previous lives, I became way too familiar with marketing and learned, the hard way, the evils and concequences of using absolute words and phrases. In a word--DON'T! This is critical given the legal environment in the US. With the perception regarding the professionalism and overall expertise and quality of Nordhavn yachts, I am surprised, even a bit shocked, they use absolutes or even hint of such. My advice to Nordhavn executive management is to have a "wood shed meeting" with the lawyers and that done "yesterday." Someone once said........."if it's too good to be true...."
    3. Insurance: I am not at all familiar with Mexican law, thankfully!! I would guess that the insurance company will pay for all of this and then try to recover from the yard. What a mess this will be and the only winners are the lawyers.
    4. As I mentioned in a previous post, Nordhavns look good from the outside. With the information on pumps in these threads, makes one want to take a real good solid look at any yacht regardless of who builds. I do know my friendly librarian, who's name by the way is in fact Marion, is starting to hate to see me walk in with a list of book requests.

    Diesel One
  14. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    1,150
    Location:
    Gold Coast Australia
    And Now The Good News...maybe

    Nordhavn would be reading every post here and working out the best solution, or should be if they want to maintain image. As would a few other "top of the line" builders.
    Anyone know the Grand Banks spec on bilge pumps?
    I recently had my 40 year old Hatteras 53 relaunched after anti foul etc and as I turned on the batteries there was more than a few cupfulls of ocean pumped out the bilge. I too will be looking for a redundant system that will run when needed. Dead batterries are one of the most common issues on any boat. Good time to start a thread on this subject?
    By co-incidence, a friend in Hong Kong recently asked me my thoughts on Nordhavn, did I rank them at or near the top.
    Too me they are right up there.
  15. diesel one

    diesel one New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    42
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    And Now The Good News...maybe

    I most strongly suspect Nordhavn management, legal team (if the lawyers aren't, time for new lawyers!!), marketing and sales are reading and discussing, in great depth. Nordhavn makes good boats, no question. Are they "the best"? No manufacturer of any product makes the "best one"--just my opinion.

    Why does Nordhavn have "mandatory extras"?

    Been doing a whale of a lot of research and questioning and believe there is room for improvement within Nordhavn in certain areas--bilge pumps for one as evidenced by the above thread; lighting for another, hand holds, curved ladders both inside and outside, and others.

    As someone, a very intellegent someone, said: "Hubris Attracts Nemesis."
  16. Yachtjocky

    Yachtjocky Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    366
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    As already mentioned, Tuna Tubes are for keeping bait alive, usually small tuna but they need to be face down in a tube with a good water flow coming in at the bottom. This is probably why a 2" thru' hull fitting was reportedly installed.

    As for bilge pumps, I would have to ask how many 12 or 24 volt DC submersible bilge pumps are installed in say a Feadship. Mostly there is a 120 or even 220 volt bilge pump with a manifold with a fire/bilge pump as a back up. Then there is a diesel powered back up pump that is sometimes portable or plumbed into hard pipes.

    Having worked on quite a number of Nordhavn's I would have to suggest that the cause of this sinking was due to human error, poor workmanship by the installer if that was the source of the water ingress, poor follow up checking by a captain or owner and poor operation of the vessel by leaving water tight doors open.

    Did the Captain or owner carry out regular checks of the bilge system, did they check bilge alarms before a trip, did any body ever put water in the bilge areas and use the hydraulic pump to ensure it was working.

    Numerous builders install an inverter that powers the 110 volt equipment, ie, a battery charger or the charger side of the inverter charges the batteries from the shore power or generator power and then back from the batteries through the inverter to the equipment.

    Inverter systems usually power refrigeration equipment, maybe a microwave, some if not all 110 volt outlets and the entertainment equipment. Cruising & trawler style yachts use these systems to allow owners shut down in some anchorages.

    So what size of pump, is there a reqirement that states for a certain volume of space there should be a certain size of pump, not that I can find. The only thing I found after a quick search was "an adequate size pump for normal marine conditions" to be installed.

    How many yachts come with an emergency suction on the main engine sea water intakes but nobody has tried opening the gate valves, yes gate valves.

    Has anybody seen the 2 1/2" discharge on the very large bilge pump installed in the 34' Luhrs, why ?, cockpit scupper sizes is one reason, aft cockpit drain and low freeboard at the transom gate were but a few issues.

    A quick look in the Lewis catalogue and one can see not only 110 volt submersible bilge pumps but also 110 volt submersible air conditioning sea water pumps.

    Probably in normal use the capacity of the bilge system on the Nordhavn's is adequate, I would have to ask who would want to go into a flooding Hatteras engine room and find the emergency suction valve if they knew were it was in the first place or look and try and get your hand down to the valve below a Cat' engine in an Alaskan.

    I think the problems would be very different if much more time and effort was put into bilge alarm systems. A big bright light and an even bigger audible alarm may help on the outside and alert system thru' the phone, internet, satellite (something like the Magellan system is excellent).
  17. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
    Messages:
    2,192
    Location:
    Cold Spring Harbor, NY
    Another dumb question from CSH,NY, what does that mean in the context of improperly installed tuna tubes (been using that newly discovered term all day!)??
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    13,037
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    That is correct. They look like a very large rod holder, and usually there are several of them, and you have a constant water flow from the bottom up and it flows out of the top. You stick you're baits (live) head first in there and it keeps them alive and you can pull the bait out and toss it to a billfish (or whatever).

    They're generally used on boats that tease the fish up and then pitch a bait and yank the teaser away from it.
  19. travler

    travler Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    276
    Location:
    roche harbor wa
    WOW I LEARNED SOMTHING NEW AS WELL what happened to bait tanks or tuna tubes used for the tuna or just the bait or both mabay some one could explain it too those fo us that don't know

    curious travler
  20. Hattsoff

    Hattsoff New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2009
    Messages:
    56
    Location:
    Chicago IL
    Are what you described above also what (I think) are called crash valves?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.