Nordhavn Expedition Yacht Fish 75 Sinks?

Hey Folks

Aren't we losing focus? This was caused by the negligent install of "tuna tubes" (what ever the heck they are?) Maybe Nordhavn pumps were inadequate, but some one let someone cut a hole in the bottom of their boat without perhaps checking the compentency of the "mechanic". and not checking the work. Isn't that the lesson here? Check out the mechanic, but also check out the work!!

I've had a mechanic miss tightening a fuel fitting that sprayed my engine room with fuel, if I didn't put my earmuffs on, start the engines, and check it out - well who knows what would have happened next time I left the dock??

The poor tuna tube install, if that was the cause, was just the first event in the cascade. And yes, the installation probably should have been looked at after the work was done.

But in many, if not most, cases owners hiring out a job either assume the "professional" doing the work knows how to do it right or the owner has no clue as to if it's right if he looks it over, or both. So perhaps the owner did check it out.
(Look at it this way, apparently the owner thought, or was lead to believe, he had enough bilge pump capacity. And we see how that turned out.)

Either way, seeing that a 75' boat designed and marketed for open ocean travel has enough of the correct size and type of bilge pumps installed should not, IMHO, be the sole responsibility of the purchaser of that vessel.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion; but it is just that, an opinion. To my knowledge, no one here knows, or at least has not shared such knowledge here, as to the de-watering configuration of this vessel when it was commissioned. Also unknown are the number of owners and any modifications to the de-watering systems of this vessel since it was built.

Until these facts are known and the specific cause(s) of this sinking are known, IMHO it is totally irresponsible to bash a successful builder such as PAE.

Perhaps, but reread post #19.

When my boat is in FL I always close all of the thru hulls when we are not on the boat. When the boat is in Baltimore (45 minutes from home) I close the thru holes if I wont be on the boat for more than a few days. I would never put a boat in the water without carefuly inspecting the work of any professional doing a new thru hull fitting and would definitely leave the thru hull closed if not on the boat following a newly installed thru hull system.

Our Viking SC has a total of five 2000 GPM pumps with auto switches, I find it hard to believe that the electric pump numbers are accurate.

Two 11 GPM pumps compared to five 2000 GPM, yes it is hard to believe...

I guess the right figure is 33 GPM for your pumps?

thats what current PAE buildspecs say:

Bilge Pumps: Per PAE design

Electric: Four (4) Par Jabsco34600-0031 120 volt 60 Hz 10.8GPM diaphragm 1" (2.5 cm) diameter ports, with "Ultra Senior" 24 volt auto float switch #UPS-01-24/32. With relay for 120 volt operation - one (1) in each water tight compartment

Manual: One (1) Edson #117AL-200-230-PC

Hydraulic driven emergency pump: One (1) Pacer model #PACSE2BHYC plumbed to all water tight compartments with 2" (5.08 cm) PVC piping. Manifold for emergency pump to be located in easily accessible location. Pump to operate by manually switching on. Per PAE design

Electric driven emergency bilge pump: One (1) Pacer model #DP900C-30W36CT plumbed to the emergency bilge manifold for use as a back up if the hydraulic driven emergency pump fails

High Water Bilge Alarm Panel - Pilot House per PAE design. . High water bilge sense will come from standard Ultra Senior in each bilge compartment. Visual and audio alarm panel in pilot house

The bilge pumps are AC powered??????? So if the generator stops running or if the shorepower pops the breaker, you INSTANTLY lose all of your automatic bilge pumps???? I find it incredibly hard to believe the boat doesn't have any DC bilge pumps.

more from buildspecs:

3.5 kva 120 volt AC inverter system for emergency power, control power to the helm station and for refrigeration during times when the generators are offline

...

The DC electrical system is a 24 volt distribution system with a maximum capacity of 765 amp/hours. The DC system is to provide limited power the ships inverter system and provide power to the helm station DC equipment

Standard batteries are located per PAE machinery drawing and are provided as follows:

24 volt DC house battery bank - consists of six (6) 8D, 12 volt "Lifeline" AGM batteries @ 255 Ah each. connected in series/parallel. A total battery bank capacity of 765 amp/hours is provided for emergency, control, ships equipment and limited operation without operation of a generator or shore power connection

Yes, but is an AC pump going to work when the wiring is submerged? Is the inverter going to work when there is 2' of water in the engine room? If the shorepower goes out on the dock, will the inverter automatically come on or does it have to be manually turned on?

WTF? Assuming this to be true, and I doubt that it's misprint,

(Page 11 - http://www.nordhavn.com/brokerage/listings/7503/images/N75EYF_standard_spec.pdf)

I'd love to hear the builders rational behind this design.

Anybody know the voltage on the Pacer backup pump? Can't seem to find it on the Pacer web site.

But either way AC or DC powered, specing only 4 11 GPM pumps (which are rated at open flow by the way so even that number is meaningless) is pitiful.

If I was the company insuring a vessel with that bilge system on it I think I'd demand it be manned 24/7.

it's a straight copy-and-paste from the current PAE website specification - to provide some technical basis for this thread's discussion .....

46CFR182 TABLE 182.520(a)

They don't even have to build to this level. So, they can legitimately claim that their standard bilge pumping capacity exceeds the minimum requirements.

ABYC is very quiet in this regard so pleasure surveyors don't have much to report either, other than opinion if one would ever make a comment without upsetting the buyer or the insurer.

Hi,

The last time I saw a pair of these type pumps they were 12 or 24v given they had wires and crocodile clips hanging off them and were setup on a board ready to be used to water a dope plantation that was about 50m away from the river.

We came across this approx 25 yrs ago in NZ while out looking for a few Captain Cookers and given the area we were in and the well known un friendliness of the locals we did not hang around to see if this system actually worked.

At best I would say they were manifestly in adequate for use as Bilge Pumps. Rule and co make some pretty high capacity 12 and 24V Pumps that would be much better than these POS's to pump out the bilges if this is the route you must take.

A few of these would surely do a better job. http://www.boatersworld.com/webapp/...&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&productId=14489657

PAE says: "Built to the highest international standards and extensively outfitted with the finest equipment, the new Nordhavn 75 EYF will allow her owners unlimited adventure in safety and complete luxury."

The GA's for the boat and PAE's specs (which seem to be unavailable online from their site these days) talk about watertight bulkheads and the type of penetrations used.

"Water tight bulkheads per construction drawing to include, but not limited to the following areas: Between Lazarette and E/R ,
E/R and lower guest cabins, and chain locker/collision bulkhead. Use "Roxtec" thru bulkhead fittings"

But, and this is the big but ... having 3 or 4 watertight compartments is not equivalent to having a "floodable length" or single or multiple compartments that when flooded still provide for damaged stability and flotation. There is a big difference as the topic of this thread clearly shows.

It shouldn't be surprising but there is very little, if anything at all, published about Nordhavn stability. Which just begs the question, to what international standards does PAE refer?

Although the 75EYF had four watertight compartments, the door was left open between the engine room and the lazarette. Had this door been shut, perhaps the boat would not have sank.

As to the size of the pumps, bilge pumps are cheap, and it is an area where some owners have already beefed up the size, and/or number, of the pumps. I spoke with one owner recently who had upgraded to Rule pumps, and I will probably do the same on my boat (I have three jabsco's in my engine room now).

As was pointed out earlier, there are three independent bilge pump systems in the engine room of Nordhavns: electric, manual and hydraulic. The electric pumps are for use at the dock, and are meant only to toss water overboard until someone responds to the bilge alarm, and fires up one of the larger pumps.

In the case of the 75 that sank, many things went wrong, and the bilge pump was not one of them.

- A thru-hull installation was botched (wrong fittings, wrong hose)
- The water tight door was left open
- Proper inspection and monitoring of the installation of a major new thru-hull (a 2" opening six feet below the water line counts as major) was not done
- No one responded to the audible alarm

Over 10,000 gph of water was flowing into the boat. I am unaware of any production boat, of similar size, including Dashew's boats, that have that kind of unattended at-the-dock pumping capacity.

As to the issue of 120v vs 24v pumps... It certainly wouldn't have made a difference in this situation, and I can't imagine a situation in which it would. If the shorepower were to go out, the bilge pumps would still be effectively coupled to the batteries, via the inverters. We are really discussing nothing more than wire size, and generally speaking, smaller wires with higher voltage are better.

Ken Williams
Nordhavn 68, Sans Souci

That may be. But as I've pointed out before, few production boats tout themselves as able to cross oceans on their own bottoms as does Nordhavn.

"Nordhavn - Power That Is Oceans Apart"

And just because the rest, or most of the rest, of the production manufacturers get it wrong doesn't seem to be very relevant to the issue at hand to me.

But I guess Nordhavn could add a new slogan to their ads like, "Nordhavn - outfitted at least as well as the other guys!"

"As to the issue of 120v vs 24v pumps... It certainly wouldn't have made a difference in this situation, and I can't imagine a situation in which it would. If the shorepower were to go out, the bilge pumps would still be effectively coupled to the batteries, via the inverters. We are really discussing nothing more than wire size, and generally speaking, smaller wires with higher voltage are better."

Let's start with converting DC to AC is an inefficient way to run your bilge pumps. Then move on to the whole "is the operation of the inverter system automatic or not" question, plus it adds at least one more failure point to an unnecessarily complex system, etc.

As to the wiring make up, I'd rather have as little AC wiring, large or small gauge, any where near bilge water that I may need to be standing in to fix a leak. With sealed batteries your DC pumps may continue to run even when the batteries become submerged. And in point of fact if your bilge is or has filled with to much water, turning off all AC systems might very well be necessary to keep from getting electrocuted while finding and stemming the leak.

Capt. Bill, can we summarize this by saying that you are anti-Nordhavn and I am pro-Nordhavn?

I don't understand your hostility to the brand, or efforts to imply they have some culpability in this incident.

Each to their own I guess.

Personally, I've run over 40,000 nm on my Nordhavn, including crossing both the Atlantic and the Pacific. I'm a very happy Nordhavn owner who would not consider any other brand.

Ken Williams