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| Nobiskrug | 142.1M | S/Y "A" | 2015/17 |

Discussion in 'Nobiskrug Yacht' started by German Yachting, Sep 1, 2015.

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  1. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

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    After seeing the pictures and videos posted her potential sail area from her 3 mains does not seem like all that much compared to the size of the yacht overall.

    I am wondering how much more sail is in her plan and how fast she will really be able to go under wind?
  2. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    The more more I see of this vessel, the more I can confirm... I am not drinking the Kool-Aid. :confused:
  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    How they could ever call that vessel a 'Pearl' is beyond me, ....pure UGLY
  4. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    Some notes from a feature

    Length: 142.81m
    W: 24.88m
    Gt: 12,700
    Draught: 8m
    Max speed: 21
    Cruise: 16

    -Glass bottom bulb in keel between props

    -Masts can be rotated 70 degrees

    -3,747 square meters of sail area

    -12 degrees maximum heel
  5. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    What.. brian eiland, Think of this magnificent creature as a motor sailor!
  6. Chasm

    Chasm Senior Member

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    And back to the barn, eh yard.
    Looks very much like the aft mast developed vertical cracks just above the gooseneck during the first trials.
  7. Ward

    Ward Senior Member

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    Affected by the exhaust heat?

    Man, that is an ugly boat!
  8. Hohum

    Hohum Senior Member

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    Something has gone very wrong with that mast, and the appearance of exhaust stains on that severe on it after such a short period is also less than desirable. Its going to be interesting to see how this gets fixed.
  9. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    This was exactly the future type of damage, I was expecting with this rig (reason for my warranty hint in post 26). But possible future damage after some years of use or after encounting heaviest weather, not during sea trails already.

    Those free pictures came up on several local online and print media and the comments are the big headlines in northern Gemany at the moment.

    Rear Mast 1.JPG

    Reat Mast 4.JPG

    On a normal boom type sail arrangement, the boom bracket allows free horizontal movement of the boom of more than 180 degrees and some vertical movement. The horizontal movement of the boom is controlled (and limited) by the main sheet and sometimes by a boom preventer. The vertical movement by the boomvang and sometimes by a boom lift.

    Boomvang and lift do exist on this rig too but the boom bracket will only give a few degrees of horizontal travel of the boom as it is limited by those horizontal hydraulic rams (for fine trim only). The normal boom travel is done by the rotating mast. And here, the problem is most likely located. The torsional forces applied in that mast area are tremendous, as the main sheet will only play a secondary role (if at all) on this Dyna type masts. The main force is taken by the mast, those horizontal rams and the mast turning mechanism.

    I am sure, the Dykstra boys have done their job, calculated the forces on this rig correctly and calculated the necessary strength of the masts accordingly. But somebody screwed up and if not caused by a major production mistake and as estimated by earlier posts, this funnel very close in front of the rear mast seems to be the problem.

    Modern high speed marine diesel engines with dry exhausts and aft exhaust gas treatment like oxi cats, particle filter and SCR cats need to maintain a pretty high EGT in the complete exhaust piping up to the funnel, in order to keep the exhaust gas cleaning effective and working and to prevent sulfur acid condensate in the piping. The exhaust gases will still have a temperature in upper 200 if not above 300 degrees centigrade, when leaving the funnel. And these pretty hot gases leaving the funnel directly in front of the mast are even directed towards the mast with forward speed of the boat. This will not only cause a dirty mast, it is calling for trouble.

    Even the most advanced carbon fiber reinforced "plastic" can not withstand such high temperatures without fatigue and loosing strength. I do not believe, those reinforcement plates came with the mast and if the are fore heat protection, they came to late.

    I doub, the furling booms are already loaded with sails and the sailing trails have started at all. This mast broke already, due to torsional forces, caused by the pure momentum of this large boom, during maneuvering under engine, because the mast base was weakened by heat.

    From what the drums are telling in the industry in northern Germany, the yard is in trouble (for good resons).
    A little deja vu, sister yard in Hamburg, very large yacht, Russian customer, yard lost 300 Mio Euro on a single yacht? Lets wait and see.

    Final comment on the design: Phillipe Stark is always extrem on his designs. He wants to polarize with his designs. You either like it or not, nothing in between. But as we keep saying, beautiness is in the eye of the beholder.

    Just my 2 (Euro) cents.
  10. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Recent statement by the yard: The appendages to the rear mast are only test sensoric equipment for stress tests.
    Nice try :D. The cracks are confirmed by those drums. But honestly, I whish them all the best solving those problems. A project of this size can ruin a company, if such a boat turns out to be a misconstruction.
  11. Hohum

    Hohum Senior Member

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    Excellent comments here, thanks guys.

    To be honest, even if the heat issue on the bottom of the mast can be solved the location of that exhaust is going to be a constant headache for the crew and owner; there is a reason why naval and commercial vessels have black patches painted round their exhausts or the exhausts are angled to keep the exhaust plume away from any ship structure.

    My understanding of the problem B&V had with Eclipse was that they massively underbid?
  12. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Some technical problems (vibrations and a lot of others plus time schedule not met), Exhaust stacks had to be redesigned and very rudimentary (marginal) contractual paperwork plus some professional lawyers on the customer side :D. Customers from that area are mostly pretty wise guys (well meant). Making contracts with one of those pros on handshake basis might not be a good idea. My office is located in walking distance from B&V. I was in the yard several times during the build. I could tell some funny stories about the progress of this project.

    Including all implemented (and not paid for) changes after inking the contract, the boat was definately underbid, friendly spoken.
  13. Kafue

    Kafue Senior Member

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    Great post HTM09.
    For all the posts regarding the design of this yacht and the technology being applied, you have to admire the courage of the owner, no matter how deep his pockets are.
  14. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    I still am a fan of the design once the masts were in place. What a shame about the cracking.
  15. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Well, at least the mast is most probably not broken yet. What looks like cracks seem to be cables for (thermal?) sensors. This was also mentioned in some newspaper articles in northern Germany today, together with a dementi concerning rumors about serious rig damage.
    The metal plates leashed to the mast are most obviously for heat protection. Not sure if the mast allready suffered damage, but they obviously noticed it will sooner or later.
  16. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    I also doub, the rear mast is really completely broken jet. Large rigs like this have load sensing and measurement systems included in the mast(s) and rigging. This is even more valid for a Dyna type rig. I have seen the load sensing and stress masurement system on Maltese Falcon. SY "A" must have at least a similar or even a far more advanced measurement and alerting system. I do not believe, this is a design or a naval architectual problem, as the other masts seem to be ok. It is the combination of a highly advanced huge rig and lets say a "less than optimum" :D position and design of this funnel and the hot gases comming out of it.

    SY "A" does have a highly automated rig handling and controlling system, including an automatic reefing and heel limiting system as asked for by spec, class (SOLAS yacht, LYC) and the hull design (bulbous bow). I hope, I will be allowed to post some more details of this system later.

    Even my little sail boat (in comparison to SY "A" :p) has load sensoring included under the mast, all of the standing rigging and it measures the rope load on all captive winches. If the load and / or heel limit is approached, an alert is sounding and if not obeyed, acknowledged or overrided, the main sheet captive winch releases the pressure from the rig automatically with the running backstay and boom preventer winches acting accordingly. Without such equipment any larger rig would be unsafe and dangerous.

    The test equipment showed early evidence of an upcomming problem during Sea trails, and one of the engineers in charge pulled the brake. Ultrasound (non-distructive material tests) can show cracks not visible to the human eye jet. That is the reason for sea trails. But I do not believe, the problem can be solved by just adding some heat protection plates to the leading edge of the rear mast.

    I do admire the courage of the owner to start such a (expensive and risky) project too. A designer like Phillipe Stark does not accept any kind of tight reins during the design phase. His last 3 big yacht projets are clear evidence of this attitude. He is the typical artist type of a designer. If you want him as the designer, you have to live with the results.

    But I do also admire the courage of the yard to accept such a risky task. This is a new milestone in yachting, not only in design but also in technology. I might not be a friend of the hull design (far more conservative taste, as far as boats are concerned) but I am faszinated by the new technology included in this project.

    Despite the fact, I meanwhile got informed how this rig works and I do understand the propulsion concept and most of the internal layout :), I am still looking forward to the design and the size of those sails. If I compare the size of the furling booms (width) with the height of the mast, I still wonder how a large sail like this will be able to spool up into this boom.

    I am sure, this will be a long and interesting thread.
  17. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    We´ll most probably see some exhaust pipe extensions swept to the side and Mr. Stark going mad about some engineers altering some appearance details about his design. :D
    The mast can be checked with ultralsounding equipment and infrared cameras to see if it has allready suffered cracks or delamination damage. However I really hope that they have noticed upcoming issues in time.
  18. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    It looks to me more like sensors (thermocouples or RTDs?) temporarily taped to the mast for data collection purposes. My guess is they were surprised by the temperature rise on the mast. That is kind of surprising by itself since the stacks are so close and directly aft ... it looks like one of those "what were they thinking" things.

    There are ways to cool the exhaust near the outlet but that takes volume to install the ducting and that might not be readily available. It also does not eliminate what is going to become a signature of that yacht ... a black fading upward to gray mast and probably some nasty fumes for anyone aft.

    The boat is diesel electric and may or may not require the MTU mains to run to generate hotel power. Does it have smaller aux gens with wet or ever the side exhaust?

    As far as the exhaust treatment ideas, considering that construction was started in 2012, it is highly unlikely any exhaust aftertreatment is fitted. The requirement to meet IMO Tier III does not come into effect until 2016 and is not retroactive.

    Judging by videos showing a great deal of black smoke coming from the stacks, it is also highly unlikely that particulate filters are fitted, which for a 3600kW engine that is not required by regulation to have them fitted is not surprising as the volume of such a device would be substantial.

    In the meantime, it is all speculation with perhaps a bit of schadenfreude from the press.
  19. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

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    Marmot you are correct, those devices are only wiring and sensors for data collections. The "damage" or lets say the problematic area is under those covers.

    To my knowledge :), there are no other (hidden) exhaust outlets beside this funnel, exept for the emergency genset. And there is some aft treatment included in the exhaust systems. Wheather it is working already or correctly, I do not know. But the problem is the residual heat, not the smoke. But it is not supposed to "smoke" after startup.

    Exhaust gas routing, especially the point were it leaves the boat is always a design problem for bigger sailboats.

    Square Rgger.jpg

    This is one of the bad solutions but this an older square rigger with older engines (the German Navy training vessel Gorch Fock :)). Black smoke from the exhaust and the green immage of a sailing vessel do not go along very good.

    There are several other typical exhaust gas outlet positions on larger sailing yachts / vessels. Below the waterline on port and / or starboard side may need a switchover device, when boat is allowed to heel with gensets or main engine(s) running.

    Athena.JPG

    An exhaust under the stern almost always demands a dark hull even with most advanced aft treatment systems like implemented on the Royal Huisman yacht Twizzle.

    Twizzle.jpg

    Through the mast(s) most likely only works for gensets exept for the 5 mast square rigger Royal Clipper, were the exhaust of the two Cat 3516 are led through the two rear masts.

    RoyalClipper.jpg

    For a large boat like SY "A" with a DE / Hybrid type propulsion system, IMHO the funnel solution is the easiest and most elagant way, both from the naval architecture and the designer point of view. But as Marmot mentioned, there must be a more intelligent way of designing and positioning this funnel. Btw. between the exhaust tubes and the outer skin of this funnel is, lets say, some device for influencing the final exhaust gas temperature at the outlet. Does not seem to work jet.

    But there are far more very innovative features on this crazy boat besides hull design and the rig. I will point them out as soon as they become a little bit more public knowledge (wistleblowers protection :p).
  20. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    You´re doing your best to keep us curious... :)