Click for JetForums Click for Cheoy Lee Click for Walker Click for Ocean Alexander List Your Boat

Newbie Yachtsman - More Money than Knowledge

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Robert R Chan, Aug 29, 2020.

  1. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV
    I'm a newbie yachtsman dreamer. I had a 30 deep V cabin cruiser as a young man. But this year, I'm retiring and want to cruise the world. I have a 1 million dollar budget, but want something safe and worthy of circumnavigation in style.

    So I need everyone's knowledge and advise to protect me from my ignorance. From my naive research, I have centered my choices around something like a Nordhavn 60/63/64 size and class. Obvious, this means targeting on a 10 yr yacht which of this caliber is still pretty young.

    Even with the Nordhavn, I'm not totally sure because of the single screw and full displacement ... debate. May you can add more to support my decision or choice.

    Here's my bothersome questions;

    1) With the same length and weight yacht, why won't a twin cat at 285 hp capable of pushing a semi displacement to 20 knots at 1800 rpm at 85 gph ... drop to 9 gph at 800rpms and act like a full displacement Nordhavn at 1000 rpm.

    2) I've recently looked at a Bering 65 milage. And with twin 225 fords getting 8 gph at 8 knots @ 1000rpm ... so isn't this better than a Nordavn? I think the fit and finish are both superb. And with the Bering you get a steel hull and twin screws. So this sounds like an advantage, but Bering doesn't seem to have a strong marketing NAME like Nordhavn. Am I wrong to think this way. Plus, I don't speak or read Turkish.

    3) Marketing hype: Nordhavn seems to get all the long range crusing marketing. Isn't Bering, Kady, Grand Banks, etc ... just as solid a build?

    Thanks for your answers

    Bob Chan
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    12,938
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    First off I would start by chartering a few yachts and checking out the Bahamas and Carribbean first. Everyone thinks it's so romantic to do a circumnavigation with no experience. When they do it, they realize the experience is far from as glamorous as they thought it would be. Nordhavn's are a quality build, but I believe their reputation is slightly more than actuality. Nobody mentions the 4-6 months that owners and dealers spend to fix all of the things the factory got wrong in the build.

    1. A cat can be just as, if not more efficient as a Nordhavn. However, when seas get really big, I'd rather be in a bluewater mono hull.

    2. Berings seem to have a very good reputation, don't know anything about them. But sure they can do the same thing a Nordhavn can. I wouldn't want Ford's in todays day and age.

    3. Kady and Grand Banks are more of a coastal yacht than something I'd do a transatlantic on. I would consider the 64' Northern Marine as well.
  3. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    693
    Location:
    Sardinia
    The single screw choice is mostly efficiency driven, but Nordhavn does offer twin screw in some models, for those who feel safer with it - though that's hardly MUCH safer, in practice, for many reasons.
    But the full displacement is something you have to live with regardless of brands, if you want circumnavigating capacity.

    Talking of which, I must second what CJ said.
    You mention "circumnavigation in style", but that's an oxymoron.
    Circumnavigating is about passion, commitment, hard work, and last but not least a bit of madness. There's no room for style, in all that.
    If the style bit is important for you, private jets (and/or first class in jetliners) are much better than the largest and safest yacht you can think of.
    Just look at what even superyacht owners do: for moving their gin palaces from say the Caribbean to the Med and back, they either ask the crew to do the veeeery boring ocean crossing job, or they load the thing on a FLO/FLO ship and call it a day.

    Sorry if that sounds like I'm dismissing your dream, but you did ask to be protected... :)
  4. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,259
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    The questions you raise are single versus twin engines and full displacement versus semi-displacement. The primary concerns here are related to range, speed, sea-keeping ability, and purpose.

    A full displacement vessel will address all of the issues in the safest and most efficient way. These brands include Krogen, Nordhavn, Northern Marine, and numerous Dutch manufacturers. Plus there are several manufacturers who can't boast of quantity of build, but can brag about successful yachts that have accomplished serious passagemaking. Your options expand greatly once you throw semi-displacment boats into the possibilities.

    But, you must determine your purpose. I am against the philosophy of gaining range and fuel economy in a semi-displacement yacht by going slower that engine and manufacturer recommendations. A hull is purpose designed and the engine specifically selected for that particular hull. Once you drive a semi-displacement hull at displacement speeds, you are no longer using the yacht at the speed and usage for which the boat was designed, often at sacrifice to the sea-keeping ability, handling, and engine life.

    Judy
  5. gr8trn

    gr8trn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2012
    Messages:
    292
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    1) Judy has your primary answer, there are plenty of discussions and arguments for and against twin vs. single engine trawlering. I always come to this thought when I consider single vs. twin screw/engine vessels. I realize monohull sailing vessels have sails, but they also, most of them anyway, have one engine. One engine in your car. I know the highway is not the ocean but when did you ever worry about one engine in your car. Well, when I was 16 the 1963 T bird V8 was usually not running so I get the issue involved with one engine too:)

    2) Are those actual Bering 65 numbers or just reported? Bering does not have the marketing or # of hulls roaming around so this is
    expected that they are less known. I have never seen one in person, doesn't mean I would not consider one. In fact, I would consider it for you stated purpose.

    3)Just as solid a build? That is too vague of a question to answer. What does sold build mean? What is the lay up schedule, how is the joinery mounted, what gauge wiring and fusing and schematics are used, is the fuel tank accessible for inspection so much goes into that question, So far I have found not boat to be 100% "solid" when it comes to design and construction execution.

    While I am not a circummavigator nor am I interested in such, I would go steel trawler displacement stabilized vessel if I were to do so.

    I look forward to hearing about your plans and boat search.
  6. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV
    Capt J:
    Thank you for the valuable advise. I've confused you on the "cat". I was referring to twin cat diesels vs single john deer (sorry said ford by mistake). I find the Bering 65 attractive in that size group but as "gr8trn" said, Bering doesn't have the numbers or miles of travel.

    OK, then the Kady and GB are out. I need ocean passage. Judy asked about "purpose" and I didn't state that in my opening posting. I plan on selling my land world and live and travel aboard for 1 year. So, luxury style is important for overall comfort ... I'm not the "old man of the sea" but I do want the adventure. And since being a "newbie" ... I'll probable have it Captain'ed for 3-6 months just to learn the ropes.

    Thanks
  7. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV
    mapism

    Thanks for your reality setting remarks. Yes, there's an oxymoron in my dream. But I'm not at all mistaking my dream as a mistake foolish or not. At 67, I'm ready and planning to be bored at 7-8 knots. I don't want to travel at 20 knots unless there's a storm behind me. I'm a planner, engineering type, and mechanical type. I've been a healthcare exec for decades and understand the need for planning and safety, also I've owned 24 homes and been a builder, repairman, and mechanical specialist all my life ... I guess I'm trying to say that I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, but rather a farmer type. When young, I owned a 30ft cabin cruiser and dreamed that one day (today) I would own a 53 Hatteras or GB which were dream boats 40 yrs ago. Now I'm there, except the dream boat has grown a bit but the dream hasn't. I just want the best advice to enable the dream to be a safe and pleasurable one.

    The dream include adventures in unseen part of the world and history. And its OK to be boarded for weeks until I get to my next port and continue the dream.
  8. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV
    Judy, thank you for your purposeful and article answer to the Speed and Displacement issue.

    But can you elaborate on your comment of "sea keeping ability and purpose and engine life". In my naive mind, I was thinking that taking an engine configuration rated to push a yacht at 20 knots at 1800 rpm would extend the life of the engines at 12knots at 1200rpm ... or something like that. You're suggesting that I could harm the diesel engines and shortening their life. I kinda understand in running at lower rpm would potential build carbon deposits. So your comments clarify this greatly in my minds.

    But that being said, Bering 65 uses 2 JohnDeer 225hp for a 107 GT yacht. Nordhavn uses a similarly size single engine on their Nordhavn 63. So the Bering will still operate at recommended RPM's. Isn't this a good plan?


    Thanks
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    12,938
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Many of the larger yachts and yachts in your size range will run 1000 rpms for extended periods of time for 6+ hours and then run at cruise for 30 mins to clean things up, and live a very long long life.
  10. KoffeeCruising

    KoffeeCruising New Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2018
    Messages:
    28
    Location:
    Fl
    Good advice from Judy, Cap’n J and Mapism

    My 2 cents:
    I think your $1Million budget is way low for an “ocean passage capable yacht”. The safe vessel for that type of travel is a lot more - plus your insurance will require a Cap’n with that type of license to get you there.

    With your engineering planning background, maybe think of your ocean passage dream like NASA’s Mercury- Gemini-Apollo program. Apollo 11 was the goal with lots of steps leading up to it.

    It’s actually fun learning to master docking your boat in a tight slip, learning all your Nav electronics, the CollRegs, how to change your clogged RACORS when your Genset suddenly stops.....
    Really- yachting is an engrossing puzzle solving game. Next learn how to cross the Gulf Stream and find an island- and learn how to fill out immigration and custom forms. And learn how much your Crew likes the process of getting there be being there.

    Each of these tasks will prepare you for each successive longer trip.

    I am in no way dissuading you from pursuing your dream; just putting out there that NASA made it to the moon by methodically learning al the steps. And the learning is a huge part of the fun/satisfaction.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    6,042
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    To the OP, first thing you need to do is go hire a good captain for a full time position, explaining your plans and let them assist you in formulating a realistic plan. They may also help you with budget as $1 million isn't much for circumnavigation plus you need to see if you're prepared for the annual costs which likely would be up to $100k plus a $100k, including fringes, for the captain.
  12. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,259
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    A few points of clarification plus a few opinions:

    Kadey Krogens are full displacement hulls and quite capable of ocean crossing. $1m should be plenty for buying a capable ocean going yacht. She might not be new and might need some upgrades and updates, but there's a lotta folks enjoying their boats in blue water that didn't have that purchasing budget. I am aware of yachts that cruise at fuel saving economy and then run the engines at recommended load every hour or so. I reiterate, a hull designed to go 15 + knots is not going to be as comfortable a ride or as easy to handle in a 6, 8, 10 foot sea as one designed to do just that. Plus comfort at anchor plus sea conditions might not allow you to "clean things up" because you need to run the engines at the speed the manufacturer told you to run before you bought the boat to contort its usage for your purposes. Aside from a captain teaching you how to operate your boat with hands-on training, most likely insurance will require it of you until the captain signs off that you are capable of captaining your own ship. Don't be so concerned with name recognition and perceived popularity. That may be a relevant factor for bragging rights or resale value, but resale should be one of many boxes to be checked, but if you put more value on safety and pleasure for what you can afford, then resale might be one of the boxes at the bottom of your list.
  13. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV

    Koffee:

    Thank you for your 2 cents. Your points are valid ... and good warning for a dry land Newbie. I'm not afraid of learning and expect to learn a lot and if I made myself sound like a Brooks Brother suiter without the knowledge of a screw driver. I have been a previous boat owner *smaller though", I'm very DIY and mechanically inclined having owned over 25 homes and rentals and have built, rebuilt, constructed, and remodeled all my life, including rebuilding engines in my farmer days and building electronics kits. So, I know my way around service manuals pretty well. I fact, I have a complete workshop including welders and use it regularly. So, I think that if a don't buy a piece of JUNK, I can analyze most minor problems and fix'em or at least hobble to the nearest port for services.

    So, I welcome your comments. In addition to my dreams, I also come with lots of physical, mental, engineering, and repairman skills. In my professional skills, I have also traveled extensively including Europe, Asia, and Caribbean. I just did it via JET with my eyes always on my watch. So, in my retirement I want to travel and adventure ... without a watch or boarding pass.

    Correct me, I assuming that modern boat with 10 yrs of use today, is still in its adolescence. So, my million dollar budget for a 60 something passage maker would be a fine RIDE to adventure the world and I would consider Bering, Nordhavn, or Northern Marine to be STYLE fitting. And most equipment in this period if maintained well is still very useful and the features still considered modern.

    While I need it able to make ocean passage, but I'm not trying to be a commercial yacht. 90% of the milage should be within 20 miles off a coast or island. If I planned a journey beyond my comfort level, I could always hire a crew/captain.

    If I had to, I could stretch to $1.5m ... but my dreams don't want to be limited to coastal voyages from Alaska to Mexico or Boston to Puerto Rico.

    thank you

    Bob
  14. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV
    Older,

    Thank you for your comments. The $1 million is for the yacht. I preparing for ongoing costs to run 10 - 15% annually, depending on time cruising vs anchored.

    The Captain idea has merit and I'm planning it for at least a short period to learn the ropes of managing critical systems, emergency procedures, sea protocols, international regs, cost guard regs, and port protocols etc.

    Thank you

    Bob
  15. Robert R Chan

    Robert R Chan New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2020
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Reno, NV
    JWY,

    Thank you for your thoughts. Let me start form the bottom;

    1) Resale is important for a variety of reasons, least of which could be that after my 1st year as a "Live Aboard" ... the bug may be over. Or at my age of 67, it may not be a good or safe idea anymore. So Dreams are fine, but I'm not crazy. And in my initial assessment, my research has been limited to popular brands for no reason than just availability of DATA. As for brand, someone suggested Northern Marine as a fine passage maker ... but isn't that the brand which recently capsized a 90 ft'er during launch because of a combination of stupidity, insufficient ballast, and an open door to the engine room? So, I guess every boat is basically at the mercy of the build team, which for some brands in somewhat inconsistent. So, least for a used yacht, you have a performance history of sea worthiness, quality, and economy. So, my brand showcasing was only because of my available research nothing more.

    2) Thanks for confirming that $1million should be enough, for the reasons mentioned that there's lots of older yachts being enjoyed in Blue Waters.

    3)
    I'm a little unclear on your comment of "contort its usage for your purposes". So, did you really mean that someone running at below designed speeds, then "running for a hours at recommended speeds" ... NOT A GOOD IDEA? So, its harmful ... right?

    Thanks
    Bob

  16. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,259
    Location:
    Ft. Lauderdale
    That's affirmative IMHO. One of the points that I was making is that sea conditions, weather, or other circumstances might not allow you to hit the throttle because "it's time to do what the manufacturer recommends." And I would hate being on my yacht and having to set the alarm because the engine rpm requires it to maintain the life of the engine. Yes, I know it's done. I'm just making the point to make sure you are buying the boat for the way she will be used the majority of the time.
  17. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    10,146
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Let me zero in on a different aspect of this. In his last post Mr. Chan stated he's 67. As someone about his age I can tell you that one of the biggest considerations I have about where I live is access to quality medical care. I wouldn't want to be 3 days from port and suffer a stroke. I wouldn't want to be someplace that doesn't accept my insurance when I take ill. I recently read a post from a notable world cruiser about our age. He's moved to a land yacht.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    12,938
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    Honestly, the absolute best thing you can do is charter a few yachts for a week each to simply get a feel for the yachting life. I'd do a charter in the Exumas, Bahamas, one in the BVI's and one around St. Maarten. Quite honestly, while doing a transatlantic sounds glamourous, that is the furthest thing from the truth. At your age, I'd be enjoying the Bahamas and Carribbean and stop there, you could spend decades doing that. And, honestly a Nordhavn and most of the trawlers mentioned for transatlantic are the wrong boat for that, due to draft.

    A 10 year old boat could be barely broken in, or a total basket case depending totally on how it was maintained.
  19. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2008
    Messages:
    693
    Location:
    Sardinia
    Amen to that.