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New Princess 55 - Quality Control problems?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Mikolebi, Jun 13, 2018.

  1. motoryachtlover

    motoryachtlover Senior Member

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    Scott W seeking your insight not disagreeing. Why do you not like arbitration. I have been involved in that twice. It seems to promote settlement via compromise. But is compromise (getting half of your damages) all that bad when I feel like the courtroom can be a crap shoot. I have been signing contracts that call for arbitration. I get the feeling you don’t or would not.
  2. Scott W

    Scott W Member

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    It's not that I 'don't like' arbitration. As a business owner, I love arbitration in customer contracts because it generally limits my exposure when I’ve failed. And/But, as a business owner, I'm skeptical of arbitration clauses in vendor contracts and here's why: Arbitration is private. If you have a vendor who has failed to fulfill his end of a contractual agreement and that agreement has an arbitration clause, any pressure the vendor has to settle the claim to avoid unflattering information coming to light in the litigation/discovery process, is largely eliminated.

    Additionally, when you're confined to arbitration, your powers of discover are also limited and wholly dependent upon the specific language of the arbitration agreement. Even more problematically, punitive damages, injunctive relief and judicial/appellate review are all limited or expressly prohibited in arbitration. There are several other shortcomings for the consumer/purchaser that can potentially manifest themselves in arbitration clauses, but these are the ones I have found to be most problematic.

    I think for routine purchases, arbitration clauses are fine and probably beneficial because the process is so much quicker and less expensive. But, for capitalized/big ticket purchases, I generally avoid arbitration clauses like the plague.
  3. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    As Scott outlines very well, the one advantage of arbitration is time and cost, although arbitration is increasingly getting very expensive itself. Consumers are often shocked by the cost of arbitration. The cost of initiating the claim is actually far more than filing a suit. However, the court process with discovery can be extended for years by a company determined to overwhelm the other party. In addition to time, the continuing legal fees mount up to overwhelm most individuals.

    One other negative of arbitration in consumer vs. business. Often in a consumer case, a jury trial is the most favorable situation, over a judge or arbitration. Juries do tend to be more receptive to the harmed individual vs. the massive conglomerate.

    One other advantage of arbitration is that you may be able to get an arbitrator with knowledge in the field where that is highly unlikely with a judge. Patent disputes are a great example.

    Consumer to business, as a consumer I will agree to arbitration on small items, and to a non-binding arbitration on major items, but not binding (typically non-binding says that if the one who then takes it to court fails to improve their position, they're responsible for all legal costs for both sides.) Some states like NC have excellent non-binding arbitration.

    Consumer to business, as a consumer on large items, I'd be very reluctant to agree to biding arbitration.

    Business to business, I have no major problem with the right kind of arbitration clause.

    Specifically in this situation of customer vs. Princess, in an arbitration procedure, customer may have a very difficult, although not impossible, time ever finding out the true story of what happened to the boat. In a court procedure, with discovery, someone is going to probably disclose the information once under oath in a deposition.
  4. Mikolebi

    Mikolebi New Member

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    Just to clarify a possible misconception: we are not seeking revenge but merely sharing our experiences to raise public awareness. And yes, our priority is to make people aware of what in reality is being said and done behind closed doors. Getting the sale revoked or damage compensation is something that our legal team will need to think about if and when time comes.

    We do not mean to be rude if we do not answer some of your questions. It's just that we are not allowed to do so, for either legal or strategic reasons.

    Correct. We have absolutely no intention nor any reason to turn it ugly as we are not intending on damaging the reputation of any person or entity. We are only sharing true facts which we could support with photos, videos, documents etc.

    The blog is being updated almost on a daily basis therefore all status updates are accurate. Items pending are marked in red. As defects/problems get fixed, we're changing their status to green, also indicating the number of days it took Princess to fix the problem.
  5. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    Quit messing around.....Get your money back, and or hold any other payments walk away form the sales contract, move on and look at another boat builder and boat. This boat has been used and well abused.
    There is only so much lip stick you can put on a pig. They maybe able to 'Fix' all the problems to a working condition at the dock, but things will surly start failing under poor sea conditions. This boat will never be "Right"...
    Kevin likes this.
  6. Commodore J

    Commodore J New Member

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    You are getting good advice. I had significant problems after buying a new Italian MY in NY in 2000. I created 100 pages of text and photo documentation that I personally delivered to the manufacturers CEO. I did not publish anything but the CEO knew I could. I avoided the local dealership bc they were a big part of the problem.

    The manufacturers CEO flew to NY from Italy to personally see my boat and several others that were having problems. The CEO personally oversaw the repairs and later offered a fair financial settlement as a sincere apology. This CEO is now CEO of another manufacturer and I’d buy another boat from him in a second.

    I suggest you contact the top executives at Princess and even LVMH if necessary. I believe they will want to make it right. For now I think you would be better served pausing your website as others have suggested.
  7. jayjay

    jayjay New Member

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    Its been eight months since the buyer spoke.
    We deserve to hear the rest of the story?
  8. Fixinbones

    Fixinbones Member

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    The OP got shafted by a deceitful dealer. I have purchased two new Princess’ in the last 10 years and they were delivered in flawless condition.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I agree with you that there was something terribly strange and wrong. However, I've known several new Princesses to have way too many issues for a new boat and these are Florida deliveries I'm talking about. Sounds like your dealer is doing a better job regardless of any issues on arrival from the builder.
  10. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    I really enjoy Princesses design and they have good performance but disappointing to hear about the quality issues and that they aren’t as good of sea boats as the Sunseekers.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    That's just my opinion as to Sunseekers vs. Princess, but others may disagree, and I'm prejudiced, having owned a Sunseeker.
  12. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I would be mindful to say that Princess is better to Sunseeker and Sunseeker is better to Princess.

    Old Princess where simple boats, possibly the simplest of the British top three and a bit under powered. Things started to change in around after 2004/5.
    For example the old Princess V58 is a fine boat especially if powered by twin Man 1100hp. Possibly one of the top three expresses in that size and in shafts, for seakeeping. Much better to the only two feet smaller Sunseeker Portofino 53 of the same era for example.
    V62S is also very good. For a cruising boat sub forty knots I prefer a Bernard Olesinski hull (very similar to a Napier design) then a Don Shead. But who has been doing Sunseeker hulls in the last decade or more? No one knows, past and extend of Shead designs, or not as they do not have that feel anymore.
    New Princess have that wow effect, and are flatter in hull, but hey I have seen new Sqeekers 57s and 52s with issues and the hull is still traditional laminated.
    The thing is boating is becoming complicated for production. And as Bertram showed in around ten years ago building with infusion is not as forgiving as the old manual rolling system.
    So someone around the UK told me that they are having way to many issues with Delamiantion etc
    A way to know what you are doing with Infusion method is to build in transperent gelcoat, but hey a production builder who does high number cannot do it. Someone sleeps on his pipe and there you go boom boat is falling in peaces.
    Diab promised the World to production boat builders, they change spend a fortune to change production systems, but infusion is a bit messy if you do not do the correct procedure.
    As is IPS. It is good and fine when it works but the problems I see with the system, it really is never gonna be as reliable as a shaft drive boat.
    In both cases marketing was extensively used. But hey get a carrot take a stick go on his back and a donkey runs forever, and boat building is in that phase now at least for some.
  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I've run both the Princesses and Sunseekers extensively. The Sunseeker is a better sea boat, dryer, and generally faster. The Princesses have a deep V all of the way aft in the size range you're speaking about, and the ride in a following sea is not impressive.
  14. Fixinbones

    Fixinbones Member

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    I actually picked my last boat up in New Gretna so the boat was prepped and made ready by workers at the Viking facility. My first princess was picked up at a local dealer and was flawless as well.
  15. German Yachting

    German Yachting Senior Member

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    It seems that they may be bringing back the Viking/Princess relationship. The Viking Service Center is now a Princess/Viking service center. Maybe that will lead to better support but won’t change any ride issues or quality from delivery.
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    It never stopped being a Princess service center. Princess support and warranty support is very very good, if not excellent, no issues there. The issues are in your latter two items. Actually they ride ok to fairly good, depends on the model, the overall quality is the issue.
  17. Mikolebi

    Mikolebi New Member

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    Hey guys,

    Apologies for the long gap and hope everybody's keeping well in these crazy times…

    Here is an update for you:

    As expected, new problems continued to surface with the boat since our last post here and only part of them have been fixed by Princess last year (it took a lot of email exchanges, and our posts in this forum have been EXTREMELY helpful!).

    I have learned that Princess engaged their lawyers and threatened the owner in an effort to compel him to sign a so called “settlement agreement” where he would agree to remove blog entries and posts in this forum in exchange for getting the boat fixed under warranty (which they were supposed to do anyways), but since he is not the owner of these publications, owner refused to sign such a document.

    There is a very high chance that Princess lawyers might also have contacted the administrator of this board to get this post removed… I’m glad that it is still intact as it might very well one day allow other (potential) Princess owners/skippers to benefit from our experiences.

    Long story short, whilst these were being discussed, we have managed to bring in Princess technicians onboard for 2 days and get them to fix at least part of existing problems. For the rest, various excuses have been presented, in my opinion, to allow the warranty to lapse; and looking at their last email (details below), I’m afraid they succeeded.

    As of today, there are quite a bit of outstanding problems that need to be fixed under warranty (including a water ingress from Flybridge to Galley)…

    For those who are interested in details, please check my blog (“Recent issues / Updates” section on the right):
    https://princess55fly.blogspot.com

    Earlier this week, I advised the owner to contact Princess again as Covid-19 travel restrictions started to gradually lift, and thinking that Princess might be able to organize attendance to fix remaining problems.

    Princess’ reply was quick (reply received from Colin Capewell / Managing Director) and quite interesting as it also included a thread of their internal communication with Roger Lipman (Sales Director) where they seemingly mocked with the owner calling him a CHANCER

    Below is a direct link to relevant post in my blog (also includes full quote of email exchanges)
    https://princess55fly.blogspot.com/2020/07/chancers-dead-right.html

    Not sure how things will pan out after this last communication. Will keep you guys posted.

    Stay safe!
  18. Riknpat

    Riknpat Member

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    No opinion on the matter to hand but the 'insult' used in the email is Chancer which is British slang for 'scheming opportunist'. Still an insult but not the disease.
  19. 993RSR

    993RSR Senior Member

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    I am a fan of the Princess product. Owned a 2001 45', years ago and it served me well (except for the bottom falling out of the aluminum holding tank 15 miles offshore)
  20. mapism

    mapism Member

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    Building a holding tank in aluminum ain't one of the best boatbuilding designs either, to start with...