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New E-15 Ethanol Gas creating BIG problems!

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by brian eiland, Jun 14, 2014.

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  1. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Capt J, maintenance only becomes a factor if high rpm are involved. I build and use e85 with fuel injected engines, all I have worked with are already have a fuel system that will handle the e85, the gm ls series. The 82 C10 did 60k miles on a stock 6.0 before I built the 408 for it, and it is still running in another vehicle. That one ran 9.1's and was all stock except for head studs and upgraded rod bolts. It had 130k before I pulled it out of a wrecked truck and slapped it in the hotrod. Only changed the oil and filters in it while I had it. Now, you will have problems with the fuel system on vehicles that have run pump gas their whole lives, e85 cleans everything out of the tank and lines. Always clean or replace when converting fuel types.

    Remember the early 70's emissions era? Power and mileage reduced by 50% or more in some cases? Cars got 20mpg with 10-1 compression, but EPA mandated lower compression to lower hp and pollution. But those cars polluted even more due to incomplete fuel burn. They even campaigned to hot rodders to lower compression, it would make your engine last longer and pollute less. Yea right.

    Yes, high ethanol content fuels can cause problems with vehicles that are not built for it. I would never run it in an vehicle that wasn't set up to run on e85, and that includes flex fuel vehicles. They are NOT set up to use e85. They will accept it as an alternative, but they are not properly designed to take advantage of it. If they ever make production engines that are set up to run on it, opinions will change. But, you can not run pump 93 in a vehicle set up for e85, immediate damage would occur. E85 isn't readily available enough in all areas for true e85 vehicles to hit the market though.

    AMG, I already stated that flex fuel vehicles are NOT e85 vehicles. They will run on it but aren't designed to take advantage of it. There are no production vehicles that are made for e85. That is the whole problem. My original statement was that if someone actually made an e85 engine, fuel mileage wouldn't drop, but performance would go through the roof. People would like the stuff if they were given the proper engine for it. The fuel pumps that fail on e85 aren't built to push it. Seals that aren't ethanol rated wont take it. There are fuel pumps that last just fine on e85. I've got 85,000 miles on an aeromotive a2000 fuel pump. And it is a performance pump that can send 200psi and support 2500hp on e85.

    People need to quit putting words in my mouth. In the US today, there is no such thing as a production e85 vehicle. There is the flex fuel scam, but it is nothing more than a scam. If there was, more people would love the stuff. Gearheads have found out how to use it, and the performance market has exploded with parts for it. Why? Because it is an excellent fuel when used properly. When the drivetrain isn't set up for e85, a junk drivetrain can cause the ignorant people to blame the fuel. The fuel isn't bad just because people don't understand how to use it.
  2. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    This is getting better and better. We are taking down rain forests to grew sugar cane. Not for food, but for driving our cars. But no cars are made for driving on the fuel we produce. They are built for fossil fuel, the stuff we have soon taken up the first percentage of... Meanwhile 3 million children under five are starving to death every year... Green are mean...
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Well yes and no. E85 still has a propensity to absorb water a lot more so than pure gasoline. E85 still doesn't have as long as a shelf life before degrading compared to pure gasoline either.

    I also agree that flex fuel vehicles will run on E85, but are not designed to take advantage of it and therefore their fuel milage suffers on it.

    I'm not familiar with the performance arena anymore, so I'm not versed on what everyone is doing these days. I got out of it in 2000. I had a 93' Mustang Cobra daily driver with everything intact (a/c, power steering, etc.) that at full weight ran 10.80's at 128mph. I had 8.3 compression JE pistons, twisted wedge ported aluminum heads, Vortech S-trim at 16 lbs of boost..etc etc......it ran best on 100 octane unleaded. I used to run the Fun Ford Weekend street renegade class with it. Could have gone faster but didn't want to take the 5 speed out and put a C4 in it with a big stall converter. I put 38k miles on the motor and never had to take the valve covers off. It ran 11.70's at 130mph on 93 octane and 245/45/17 goodyear gatorbacks, and was a very fun car to drive everyday. But got tired of changing plugs, wires, clutches, and this' and thats' all of the time.
  4. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    AMG, for me it has nothing to do with being green. It is a cheap, readily available performance fuel. I first got into it in the late 90's looking for a good fuel for aircooled engines that was safer than methanol. My stroker VW's loved it. A car that was race only due to high operating temps became a driver, and I was hooked. And I could add boost. It was cheap, safe performance that sent me down this path, not the need to hug a tree.

    Capt J, I did mention the need for upgraded fuel system ventilation/filtration. I run a cotton element filter stuffed with silica gel beads in it. They absorb water humidity without absorbing fuel vapors. Seems to work decent, 3 weeks sitting didn't increase the water content of the fuel, per test strips.

    Sounds like it was a bad ride. My 82 C10 has a full 25.5 cert chromo cage, but still has full interior, and the a/c blows cold. I refuse to bake in the staging lanes, so I have a catch can on my a/c drain. Looks like a beater farm truck, but is as comfortable as you can get in a vehicle certified to run 7.5 in the 1/4. She gets fed 34lbs of boost and seems to love it. Callie's crank and rods, j-e pistons, afr heads that are O-ringed. 4-link, 9" with 3.89 gears and a spool. 33x21.5 sportsman's for the street and 33x18 slicks. 4l80e overdrive trans with 3800 stall. Put it in tow/haul mode and it will lock the converter lower and drive like stock. I've driven 600 miles, raced all night, and driven home, no issues. A/c blowing and tunes rolling the whole time. Plugs last way longer on e85. It burns clean, so if tuned right, they don't foul out. Oil and filters is all I have to do, but I limit rpm to 6500, shift at 6k. Longblock and plugs didnt carry over from the 6.0 to the stroker, but everything else did and is still alive at 85k miles.
  5. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Fine, but the politicians are not going the ethanol path to get our cars go faster I think...;)
  6. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    I don't think the politicians care about anything other than getting votes. The EPA restricts manufacturers from getting the things right with bs regulations that prevent efficient combustion. Catalytic converters caused more pollution than they ever prevented.

    Whatever the original intentions for e85, it has some uses. In other applications, it is useless.
  7. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    This is exactly one of my concerns. I've been to several gas stations in the DC area the past few days, and suddenly I don't see any indicator on the pumps as to what fuel I am buying?

    I seem to remember that most pumps that where delivering 'ethanol' specificity had a sticker on the pump to indicate that I was getting a diluted gasoline (ethanol) of up to 10%. I've been looking to see if they were going to start telling me I was now getting 15%,...at which time I was going to boycott that fueling station/brand.

    What has me worried is they might be sneaking yet another fuel in on me without letting me know? ...like this E85 crap.
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    According to this site, DC is not required to label pumps:

    Ethanol Labeling Laws - State by State Guide.

    If you want to buy (or avoid) E85, look here:

    Public E85 Ethanol stations and prices in Washington, DC

    If you are really really worried, buy and use one of these:

    Order page - Ethanol Alcohol Fuel Test Kit.
  9. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    They won't just replace current fuels with e85. Why? Because a vehicle would have converted to run it, not like the lower ethanol blends that are meant to replace standard fuel. At this point, e85 is considered an alternative fuel, it is clearly labeled.

    Brian, maybe your vehicle is crap, but e85 is not. You seem to be gullible enough to fall for all the fear campaigns agains it, but have ignored truth about it. In a crap vehicle (one that isn't properly set up for e85) the fuel may earn a bad reputation, but to those whom don't fall for every little political smear campaign, it is an excellent fuel in the right application.
  10. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    OK, can you provide a list of cars that are properly set up for E85..?
  11. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    Unless a car is specifically labelled "FlexFuel" (or whatever the different brands call it) running any fuel with more than 10% alcohol isn't recommended.

    Has this link already been posted in here? E10 Ethanol: Recommended engine precautions
  12. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Had you paid attention you would have seen that I have answered that question several times.

    There is no push to make e85 mandatory. We don't produce enough corn, and don't have the land to grow enough. If they used sugar cane, it might be a different story, but they don't. It is at the pump in some locations to offer you a choice. Hopefully someday there will be factory built vehicles that will take advantage of it, but at this time it is up to individuals to give it a shot. Did you know that running 93 octane fuel in a vehicle tuned for 87 octane will cost you power? (E85 is equivalent to 117 octane, think about it) Does that mean higher octane fuels are junk? No, it just means ignorant people can do stupid stuff with them. There are hundreds of different fuels on the market, even if not at the pump. Does the fact that you can't (don't know how to) use them make them junk? By that reasoning, everything that doesn't appeal to you is junk. A very self centered little world some people live in.
  13. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Even flex fuel vehicles aren't properly set up to take advantage of e85. They can limp around on it, but are in no way tuned to use the high octane it has.

    I have just been informed that some Ford flex fuel cars with turbo's are now throwing more boost when e85 is used. Unfortunately it doesn't look like they have done anything avoid humidity in the fuel tank.
  14. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I agree...
  15. Kevin

    Kevin YF Moderator

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    Jack of all trades, master of none. The whole premise of "flexfuel" is that they'll work no matter you dump in their tank.

    Aside from the ALMS/TUSCC running E85 in certain race cars I highly doubt any "street" cars were specifically set up for E85 only.
  16. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    Kevin, Not from the factory, but it's become a hot item in the performance industry. I have personally tuned over 300 daily drivers for it in my area, and know many other tuners who do the same. It is getting very common, the cheapest race fuel on the market, and you can get it at the pump. The problem is the sheep who panic every time they hear the word ethanol. Idiots fear it as a fuel for some reason, so they continue to repeat false rumors they hear. It is an excellent fuel, just lacking production vehicles to run it in.

    AMG, now that you have admitted your problem you can start rectifying it. Do some Internet research, avoid the fear sites, and see how many people praise this fuel. Check ls1tech, and some mustang forums, ricer forums too, call a few reputable performance shops and ask their opinion of e85. By then you will discover that your fears have been unfounded, and you can sleep well at night knowing the evil ethanol won't come eat your soul.
  17. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Please stop now, we know E85 is a good fuel, but not for the cars 99,9 percent of us drive. Period.
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Exactly, to the public E85 is garbage. To a very certain very small niche of racers it is great fuel........so please stop telling the general public it is the best thing since sliced bread.....
  19. SomeTexan

    SomeTexan Member

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    It is not just racers, there are literally thousands in dfw alone that run high performance daily drivers on e85. It may still be a niche fuel, but it is very popular with air cooled vehicles in hot climates, or any boosted or high compression applications. It is not the best thing since sliced bread, but it is not garbage. Again, that mentality states that anything that doesn't interest you is junk. You don't interest me, does that mean you are garbage? If I had your mentality, it would.
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    When you are forcing people to buy something to feed their daily drivers that aren't made to run on it, and they don't have the alternative to buy normal gasoline, then yes it is garbage and a very screwed up deal. The EPA talked last year of making the EPA Mandate that fuel had to be E85 and no more E90 available, and everyone balked. I have a 2008 Expedition and it states right in the owners manual not to run fuel with any ethanol in it, but I don't really have a choice and it seems to be fine with E90.......but many older cars don't have that luxury, and the owners of those cars as well as motorcycles, small engines, and boats (in some places), don't have that luxury and the owners are required at their expense to fix all of the parts it has destroyed. They sell non ethanol fuel at some road gas stations here near boat ramps, but the fuel nozzle is too large to fit into most automobile fills. Not to mention all of the vehicles made from the factory, lose gas mileage by using fuel with ethanol in it.

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