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New Azimut 50 Fly

Discussion in 'Azimut Yacht' started by Mike Jvel, Oct 19, 2016.

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  1. Mike Jvel

    Mike Jvel New Member

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    I don't want to single any American brand out or promote or criticize any. There are many in this size range of 50' for comparison. Examples are Sea Ray, Tiara, Cruisers, and Carver.

    The Azimut 50Fly in design and construction is built more to a standard that you would see in Hatteras or Westport, but is sized like the one's mentioned above.

    It is the difference between college and graduate school. You have to complete college before you can succeed in graduate school.
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I just wouldn't consider any of those boats to be competitors to Azimut. I'd consider all the Ferretti Brands, Sunseeker, Princess, Absolute and others like them to be the competition.

    Still, glad you're happy with your boat. That's all that counts.
  3. Mike Jvel

    Mike Jvel New Member

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    I would agree when you are talking 70' and beyond, but those brands overlap Azimut as cometitors from 50' to 65'. The difference I see is that Azimut's 50-65' yachts are built to a standards and finish that is consistent with their yachts over 65'. The American brands mentioned do not universally build a 50' yacht to the standards and finish of the largest American built model, typicallly 65', which may or may not be build to Categor A standards.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I don't like using the word, yacht. However, in this discussion, in my opinion, there are only three American Yacht Builders today-Hatteras, Westport, and Burger. Quite a few SF builders. Compare to a Viking if you want. Still the Azimut 50 isn't a fair comparison for mass produced volume production boats like Sea Ray.

    When most talk here, they wouldn't make that comparison. As to category A or B, the classification isn't important to the boats you mentioned, isn't part of their purpose. In Europe though many 50' boats are B. Yet, our 44' Riva is category A. However, category shouldn't be assumed to assure sea worthiness.
  5. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    You get a category CE A certificate if you pass a stricter stability test. Ferretti Group boats have been CE A categorized since ever.
    There is other Italian brands which insisted to get a CE A certificate.

    Azimut have been upgrading to this in recent newer models. I think the Sea Ray 510 Fly and Azimut 50 Fly are very much direct competitors, subject that the Sea Ray is cheaper in USA?
    I am sure the Azimut will have more panache outside and inside, but these new Sea Ray models are looking good and some of them just as the Azimut have also a Micheal Peters hull design.

    With sportfishing yachts like Viking or Hatteras I am sure you get another level of seakeeping and stability. All sportfishing boats get CE A certificate in Europe.
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Certainly the Sea Ray L Series is an attempt to return to the "yacht" market. Then the 510 Fly just seems to sort of feed off the L Series. Sea Ray is now offering flybridges down to 40'.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    What is Azimut dealership do you work for OR what brand of rose colored glasses do you wear?????? I've managed and maintained 7 Azimuts over the years and ran about a dozen others and none of these things are totally accurate about the brand. Shorepower has little to do with their electrical issues in most cases. The fact that they sub contract all of the electrical out on each boat to about 12 different electrical companies has most to do with it.
  8. Mike Jvel

    Mike Jvel New Member

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    Shore power has a lot to do with electrical issues, especially involving galvanic corrosion and AC equipment failures. Of course, much of that involves proper bonding and electrical connections. I'm not denying that you have seen problems there. I haven't found any of that yet. I've pulled off access panels, opened junction boxes, looked inside the electrical panels, crawled in the bilge compartments, and removed speakers and lighting to look at it all.

    I guess I should disclose that my comments apply only to the new Azimut 50 Fly as an owner with no affiliation to Azimut or any dealership. My comments do not apply to the older models of Azimut you have worked on. I have no knowledge of the specific manufacturing changes that have occurred from those older models to the newer models. I would guess, there have been significant improvements based on your observations and mine.
    I need to also disclose that I am not an electrician, but I certainly can read the specs on the appliances and motors on my boats and the shore power voltages. I have seen voltages as low as 190 on docks around here. That is below the specs on the equipment on my boat. I don't need to be an electrician to know that when you run an appliance, like a refrigerator (common Azimut issue), on 190V AC when it is designed for 220-240, the condenser will draw higher amperage and burn out. The same is true for galley appliances and air conditioners.

    I'm just reporting my experience. So far, there's nothing that I would say is worse than any new American manufactured boat. From that perspective, I have purchased and owned 2 new Sea Rays and a 6 year old Sea Ray. I have friends who also bought new and used Sea Rays, Formula, and Sabre. The new boat punch list of this Azimut is not longer. The function and reliability to date has been consistent or better than the boats I mentioned.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    But you're talking other boats not in this size or price range. Now, I will say that the initial L Series Sea Ray's had a lot of initial issues. However, outside of them, there are many far better built American boats. This isn't a country vs country thing because I own two Italian and one British boat. It's just that the boats you've owned haven't purported to be yachts in the range of the Azimut.

    Also don't know who you purchased your Sea Ray's from but today I'd attribute many of their issues and many of Azimut's to the dealership group that controls Azimut in the US and dominates Sea Ray. I do believe that a different seller might have done a better job addressing issues early in the life and the long term issues wouldn't have surfaced.

    When talking about buying a new boat today, here's what I'd say. I would feel more confident in a Riva or Pershing or Sunseeker with their warranty programs than with Azimut with Marine Max as their warranty facility and determiner.

    If you've gotten beyond any initial problems then you very well could have a fine boat and once through any warranty claims you can get it serviced where you wish. I've said this before to people looking at used Azimut's. If a qualified surveyor says it all checks out well, that's probably an indication the original owner took care of any issues and it could be a very good purchase. The problem is that in the US, with new Azimut's, we can't talk Azimut separate from Marine Max which makes the warranty decisions and provides the warranty service. I've heard good things about Azimut in Europe. Perhaps fewer electrical issues, perhaps better warranty service.

    Now Marine Max sells a lot of boats so must have many satisfied customers, but I do believe the issues and criticisms of Azimut in the US are greatly complicated by issues with Marine Max.

    As an aside, I've known Sea Ray L Series buyers to have the same problems getting service and not get them all worked out until they took their boat and left it a couple of months with Sea Ray.

    On a new boat, dealer network, warranty service, support from the manufacturer are very important. I've been very spoiled or done a great job of selecting but I've had no issues with any new boat purchases I've made.

    I do have to disagree strongly with one statement from above. The Azimut 50 is not built to standards equal to Westport or Hatteras and the support and service then isn't in the same league either. It is closer to Sea Ray than it is to Hatteras.

    I will also say this. If, as you state, it's a must to have an isolation boosting transformer, then I would consider not having one to be an issue. I don't accept that it's a European Company. They're selling in the US. Out of curiosity how much of a separate US package do they have? I know my European boats have significant differences vs their European counterparts as they address the US market. Regardless of US electricity, if the boats are having electrical issues, I put that on the manufacturer. I haven't had any of the type problems you have on Italian or British. And last, one statement you made in this regard, "I don't think the European designers and engineers are privy to that fact about our American electricity." What? They're not privy to the electricity in a market they target like they do the US? What about Central and South America and the Caribbean?

    I'm again very glad you're happy with your boat. I wouldn't be with the apparent electrical issues you've had, whatever the cause, but you're patient and tolerant and now you have a boat you love. I hope it is the perfect boat for you. You're not the only happy Azimut owner in the US, even if sometimes in forums it might seem that way. Liam says they've been upgrading and that's good. There was a former member here who was extremely knowledgeable in boats and was in Europe and he rated Azimut very high. I admit being tough. I heard what a very happy owner of a Sea Ray L650 Fly had been through and ran away from buying one as fast as I could. He loved his boat. I found the number of issues he'd encountered totally unacceptable on a new boat. If you have the patience to work through such things you can be very happy. I know myself and I don't and after the 20th item or so I would have been asking what they'd pay me for it so I didn't have to see it again.

    As to the 50 Fly, there's not a lot of competition. Sunseeker, Princess and a few others. So many boat builders have moved away from that size altogether and it leaves them difficult to find and buy.
  10. Mike Jvel

    Mike Jvel New Member

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    I agree with a lot of what you say.
    My Sea Ray 48DA was the same length and nearly the same beam as my Azimut 50Fly, so I'm talking about boats of the same size.

    When I speak about electrical problems I am speaking about complaints reported on this and other forums. My boat has not developed any under my ownership. I have done extensive online research on owner reported problems with Azimut. There is a large amount of material on this forum alone. Much of the reported issues surround corrosion and AC compressors, refrigerators, and motors. Dealer service is also mentioned as a complaint.

    When such a complicated vehicle with so many different systems is assembled, you need to expect issues on the first year shake down. I have not had any issues that would not be common or as abundant on a new comparable sized Sea Ray. I can not speak for other similar sized American yachts. As for the service, I have not enough data to form negative opinion on that. The minor issues I had have been addressed. I'm sure there are regional differences in service.
  11. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I very strongly disagree with that statement. I expect when I pay a million dollars or many millions for it to be delivered in good working order and not to have issues. I understand we've often come to accept different, but to expect issues is to set our standards pretty low in my opinion and to have them throughout the first year, just intolerable. Cars are complicated but I haven't in the last 25 years of ownership had any problems to report when I took one in for it's first oil change. I have heard from those older than me that they once did. How did it change? The Japanese cars arrived and they were delivered without those issues and suddenly they took the market by storm. Then American car manufacturers finally woke up and started delivering cars of much better initial quality, so today we've come to expect all cars to be delivered that way. Well, many of the problems on initial delivery of boats could have been caught simply by a dealer doing a thorough inspection and shake down. More could have been caught by builders doing a better job of final quality assurance which then leads to a better job of quality control throughout their entire process. So, I don't expect, I don't accept and I find issues on the first year of shake down to be a lousy excuse for builders and dealers not doing their job.
  12. Mike Jvel

    Mike Jvel New Member

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    Is the failure rate of a circuit board 0%? How many of those are on board? Have you ever had a Rule bilge pump float switch go bad? Did you ever see a screw strip out of its plastic backing? Did you ever see an LED fixture fail? We're not talking electrical panel fires, engine mounts coming lose, osmotic blistering and water intrusion, leaking through hulls, or loss of steerage. I agree some things are inexcusable and need to be addressed with the manufacturer and seller. I also believe the owner operator has a responsibility to know the vessel well, boats in general, and how to properly operate and maintain it. Running every appliance on board with one 50A cord or leaving it plugged into 190V of shore power for a week with the fridges, hot water heater, and A/C blasting is not smart or the manufacturer's fault, unless you fault them for not making the vessel dummy proof.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I fault them for the things I hear about every day from various buyers and captains. If 190V is a problem, then I fault them for not having an Isolation Boost Transformer. I fault them for loose connections, electric, hoses, plumbing, you name it. I fault them for an A/C not properly cooling. I fault them for a bilge pump that doesn't work on the day of delivery. I fault them for many lose screws and strips, I fault them for poor electrical sockets and fixtures and inadequate bulbs, I fault them for cabinets not properly closing and poor fitting doors throughout, I fault them for drains not draining, instruments not operating. I do fault them for all the things that could easily have been caught. This is without getting to the more serious matters. I fault the builders who clearly never did a thorough check of all systems prior to shipping and I fault the dealers who never did a thorough check of all systems prior to delivery. Another reason I do get surveys on new boats and require all items to be corrected before taking delivery. Anything a surveyor finds, they could have and should have found themselves. I also don't accept them saying, "Just bring it back some time and we'll fix it." Instead, I require it being fixed before I'll accept delivery.

    I've been on the other side as my career was spent in manufacturing and I expected high standards in the company I ran and expect them in companies I make major purchases from.

    I'm glad you're happy with your boat but I'm not going to be an apologist for companies like Azimut and Marine Max or Sea Ray or any others. Based on history, I wouldn't personally purchase an Azimut or from Marine Max. I owned three Sea Rays when younger and was happy with all three, purchased from an excellent dealer. Largest was 24. However, because of problems that existed when I was very interested in a Sea Ray L 650 Fly, I decided not to purchase one. There are boat builders in the industry I think far less of than I do Azimut and wouldn't trust on anything due to their proven lack of integrity and their quality problems.

    I think there should be boat lemon laws just as there are for cars. I've seen far too many boats spend way too much of their first year of ownership at the dealer's location. I'm not talking days. I'm talking weeks and months. I'm talking multiple trips.

    If you do a week or two week or even a month shake down cruise and come back with a long list of items to be addressed, then the builder and dealer didn't do their jobs.
  14. pamibach

    pamibach Member

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    Azimut boats are so sexy, must be the Italian thing,like a Ferrari will forever be the sexiest car made
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You need to look at more Italian boats. Then the Azimut will look like a Plain Jane.
  16. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    New person from Tex My Ass. You ever worked on a Mut? Spilled any blood in one reaching for the most simple item for service? Tried to find a workable schematic to follow one wire? Have a clue where all of the breaker panel and hidden breakers-Fuses are hidden?
    Have a clue why most of us really scringe when a Mut call comes in for service?

    Oh, like most style luvers; their sexy...
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    they are sexy.......until all of the wall and ceiling coverings start looking like drapes rather than wall coverings because all of the spray glue used to attach them has broken loose and they're materials that should never be installed on a yachts interior.
  18. Mike Jvel

    Mike Jvel New Member

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    I'm having second thoughts about this forum. It looks like there are few Azimut owners who post here and a lot of negativity from non-Azimut owners toward the objective, current, ownership experience I'm willing to share. Anything said that is positive is immediately shot down by senior members. When people come here to inquire about any Azimut, the same guys chime in with the same old anecdotal experiences and advice to steer clear of the brand and Marine Max. This forum has very little information reported from current owners. I was willing to provide some of that to validate the forum and help others who might be interested in buying an Azimut or learn something helpful about their vessel. If the forum has been hijacked or the objectives are to hate all Azimuts old and new, dispute any positive ownership experience, discourage people from doing business with Marine Max or buying an Azimut, then this is the wrong forum to participate in.
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Sir

    Many of us work on da muts. No, we don't own any.
    Many of us have been around for a long time. Have witnessed and some have been involved with the folly's of Marine Max. It is experience speaking here with both and not old anecdotal experiences.

    very little information reported from current owners. I was willing to provide some of that
    . Chime in any time. You can open your own thread and fill us in.

    Kind regards,
    Ralph
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have sat on the head in azimuts for more hours for more time than you have spent standing on your Azimut in total. I've run dozens of them, over 20,000 NM's, taken care of I believe 7 of them for years. I have been in and out of more Marinemax dealerships than I could even possibly begin to count. They cannot even get the waterline right on their new boats and most of them, the waterline is underwater when they're full of fuel.

    There are a few things that Azimut does well, the boats ride pretty good, are pretty dry and run fairly fast for their power. But there are A LOT of things Azimut does not do well. They have ZERO control over the electrical in the boats, each boat is sub contracted to 1 of about 10 different electrical subcontracting companies, none of them follow the blue prints, nothing is the same in the wiring from boat to boat. No quality control. The joinery work is also sub contracted and covers things you need to access sometime along the boats life. Some wear items, there is zero access to replace them without cutting the boat apart. Most of the interior furnishings were never made for the marine industry and don't last 10 years. The stuff I've seen over the years with them is mind boggling. They're an average quality boat that I can easily think of half a dozen Euro builders/competitors that build a better boat off the top of my head. Searays as you mentioned are a much better built boat......got look at 5 10 year old searays inside and out, and go look at 5 10 year old Azimuts and then you'll see the difference. Just look at how many of them are for sale in South Florida......tons of them and their resale is horrible. You cannot change the spots on a leopard and they are who they are. That being said, every boat is a compromise and there's a different boat that suits each owners needs better than the others, you love your boat and that is fine. BUT, it is what it is.

    Benetti is just as bad, I spoke to someone who is very involved with the factory in depth. He brings up an issue and a better way to do it and they ignore it. When the boat is launched there are a million things wrong with them and then there's a mad dash to correct them after the fact right before and right after the owner takes delivery.

    As for Marinemax, there is a reason several well respected builders have dropped them as dealers. Their customer service after the sale and repair and warranty departments are more akin to a used car lot at most of their dealerships and yards.