Click for United Click for Seacoast Click for Llebroc Click for Burger Click for Dockmate

MTU 4000 series Tier III certification

Discussion in 'Engines' started by captholli, Mar 28, 2018.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,041
    Location:
    In The Bilge
    MTU / Rolls Royce released their new Tier III certification today for the 4000 series motors with parameters and associated ancillary SCR equipment required in new installations. The size of the selective catalytic reduction modules needed per engine are going to drive builders and machinery space design engineers nuts. Machinery spaces are getting smaller and smaller with interior designers taking a frame here and a frame there for accommodation's. With the different types of exhaust treatment available today it seams odd that MTU would choose this method of treatment with the onerous equipment and the needed hauling and storing of aqueous ammonia or urea aboard. I'm certainly not an authority on this subject but have been around DPF (diesel particulate filter) systems such as Halyards systems and while these systems are maintenance heavy with cleaning particulate filters they're relatively small in comparison to this urea system pictured. YF does have an expert in this field that manufactures a type of DOC ( diesel oxidation catalytic system) on generators and has great success in doing so. If I was a naval architect that had to fit this new MTU SCR equipment aboard a new build 60 meter vessels machinery space it might well lead me to drink the urea.



    8722-mtu_series_4000_src.jpg
  2. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,041
    Location:
    In The Bilge

    MTU's statement didn't say whether or not this SCR system is capable of aqueous ammonia synthesis from sea water or the vessel will have to store the urea aboard. I do know that a 2800 kw engine requires copious amounts of urea to be injected into the exhaust to obtain the desired emission reductions and some builders have specified dedicated tankage for this product / urea to be held aboard.
  3. Jorge Lang

    Jorge Lang Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2003
    Messages:
    289
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    As they said in Jaws, " You're gonna need a bigger boat." All kidding aside, I'm sure a system can be designed smaller, if not more custom that a "stock" MTU SCR to fit somehow in the engine room. All of this will also generate heat, which means it will need to be insulated. It will most likely add to the overall backpressure meaning the exhaust would have to grow in diameter to compensate.
  4. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,730
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
    So who ever would supply a "smaller' and 'custom" SCR Aftertreatment System would have to re-certify the application to EPA T4 standards. Who is going to pay for the testing/certification for a one off? Who can legally own the EPA Certification other than an engine manufacturer?

    Is this any different than CAT?: https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/marine/USEPATier4FinalMarineEmissions.html

    Or Cummins?: https://www.cummins.com/news/releas...ier-4-qsk38-clean-diesel-engine-international

    The DOC reference to much smaller gensets are not an accurate comparison for larger class (liters/cylinder) and output (kW). The EPA rules do vary on engine size and emissions requirements.
  5. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2010
    Messages:
    1,041
    Location:
    In The Bilge
    The DOC reference was made as I said "A Type of DOC " is what SeaClean / Marmot / De Angelo produces & not really sure if that's accurate to describe what the SeaClean system acronym would be since it uses High temp elements to superheat the exhaust and burn off the oxides of nitrogen along with a filtration element. To my knowledge, the SeaClean systems have been installed on lower kw gen sets and I don't know if its being scaled up. Not going to speculate as I'm hoping Marmot will chime in here and set me strait. This is the first representative drawing or picture of the Rolls Royce / MTU SCR system that's come across my desk & I don't believe Cummins nor Caterpillar have released drawings or photos of their systems as Cat still refers to theirs as a "Napkin Sketch" but I'm interested to see them as are others. Cat says that at this juncture their SCR is only available with the C-280 medium speed diesel which you'll not find on any average 50 to 70 meter yacht to my knowledge. The Cat blurb says its SCR system is soon available for their C-32 series and up through the 3500 series. The Cummins QSk 38 referenced in the Cummins blurb is a mystery engine to me as is most of their line. I was surprised to learn a few months ago that Cummins has made major inroads in placing their equipment in rail transportation applications like our South Florida Bright Line locomotives amongst others. If you come across any Cat or Cummins SCR drawings or photos then please PM me as I'm curious to the space requirements for these systems. As far as one off systems designed by non engine manufacturers are concerned , I agree that's a slippery slope that engines manufacturers wont abide for . If you purchase and install a pair of MTU series 4000 engines than your also purchasing and installing their proprietary SCR system with the motors. I can envision all sorts of issues down the road when the slightest engine hic up occurs if custom systems were permitted.
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  6. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,730
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
  7. HTMO9

    HTMO9 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,352
    Location:
    Europe
    Please allow me a few comments on this subject based on personal experience. This system is available since 2016 and works pretty well in my present boat. 2 x MTU 16 V 4000 M 53 R with the SCR and Soot Filter System like in the picture above. The only difference is, the exhaust cleaning system is mounteed the other way around and sits above the engine. A similar smaller system is used for the two generators. All diesel engines in the engine room are connected to dry exhaust stacks which end up at the top of the mast. As the engine room of a 200 ft yacht is typically occupying two decks, installation height is not a problem.

    The yard had some concerns about the heat radiation of the 16 Cyl. engine during the design phase, as they were used to Cat 3516 engines for this type of application. As this engine radiates much more heat from the top of the engine block, they were usually building an exhaust hood above the 3516 and 3512 engines. This would have caused problems as far as available space for the SCR sytem above the engine is concerned.

    But the MTU 16V 4000 with the M53R Rating (continuous duty) runs much colder and the exhaust hood is not needed. The engine room is nicely filled with machinery but the engine room is by no means bigger than on similar boats and the engineers have easy eccess to all equipment.

    The Urea (the fluid used for aircraft and airfield deicing) based fluid used in the SCR cleaning system is a 32,5 % aqueous solution and available on the market for onroad, offroad, rail and marine diesel engines and called AdBlue. A typical modern diesel engine uses 2 to 8 % of its fuel consumption of Adblue. Means, with some safety factor included 10 % of your fuel tank capacity is taken away by the AdBlue Tanks. With app. 4000 NM Range at 14 Kts left, not really a problem. As my boat has a hybrid propulsion system, the generators are not running during normal cruise.

    But and this is the biggest Con, you need cleaner diesel fuel for this setup. The new MTU engines are therefore cleared for the use of very low to non sulfur diesel fuel including EN 590 diesel, blended Bio Diesel and blended GTL Diesel. The typical "dirty" MGO you would get in certain areas of this planet, would kill the exhaust gas cleaning system.

    And the back pressure in the exhaust gas system will increase during the soot filter soot buildup before the regeneration cycle starts. Like on conventionell submarines which go a lot on snorkel dive with the propulsion engine running, this has some side effects on the engines cylinder lubrication. Means, for safety purpose and in order to prolong engine life, we have to lower the oil change intervalls (for peace of mind, we just cut them in half). That is exactly what our Navy does with their conventionell Submarines.

    The same setup is used on my shadow boat, the converted cargo vessel. The 8.500 Kw MAN medium speed HFO diesel engine was converted for the exclusive use of EN 590 diesel and all HFO components were removed from the vessel. Similar type of exhaust cleaning system with the use of AdBlue. Works perfect like the above.

    Due to this setup we only have one type of fuel on board of all boats and tenders including the turbine aircraft living on the shadow. Due to the large amount of tankage on the shadow, we never have problems with the appropiate fuel supply. But without the shadow, the boat could probably not go to all the places we want, as this clean diesel fuel is not available in all areas of interest.

    If You want cleaner boating, You have more systems to watch, more planning for obtaining correct fuels, You need better trained engineers and below the bottom line, more $$$$$$.
  8. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,730
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
    Now that is great owner/operator post :)
  9. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    3,320
    Location:
    9114 S. Central Ave
    "... not really sure if that's accurate to describe what the SeaClean system acronym would be ..."

    Thanks for the plug, captholli.

    The SeaClean system is a continuously regenerating diesel particulate filter or DPF. We use electrical heaters to maintain the exhaust temperature entering the filter at a level high enough to ensure catalytic combustion of black carbon (soot), hydrocarbons, and nitrous oxide across the greatest range of generator loading. The filter captures inorganic components such as lube oil additives and wear metal from cylinder liners and piston rings without altering their composition. The filters do not remove or reduce NOx.

    We normally do not use a DOC or diesel oxidation catalyst in front of the filter since exhaust heating facilitates combustion of the organics. However, we have a test/display unit fitted with a fuel fired heater and a DOC for test and demonstrations. EnerYacht and DeAngelo will show it at the upcoming Triton Expo. The DOC was added as an alternative to active exhaust heating. Catalytic combustion in the DOC increases exhaust temperature at the filter inlet and promotes regeneration. This is intended for use on small generators or main engines where adequate electrical power is not available. Our "standard" SeaClean system uses up to 30kW of power maximum when exhaust temperature is low. When the generator is loaded the heater is normally not required and the electrical power automatically ramps down proportional to the incoming exhaust temperature: low temp = high e-power, high temp = low or no e-power to heater.

    The fuel burner/heater is not quite ready for prime time but is very close. It uses diesel fuel to heat exhaust as it passes through a small combustor enroute to the filter. We expect to use periodic regeneration to achieve the best result at the lowest cost for added energy.

    We are currently prototyping an IMO III compliant SCR (selective catalytic reduction) system for generators as systems for <300kW simply do not exist and those intended for higher outputs are absurdly large and, in my opinion, will just about spell the end of the 50m class boat as we know it today. We have already seen owners rebuilding rather than replacing older generators in order to avoid the regulatory nightmare created by IMO III and the NOx ECAs (emission control areas). The complete system will not be much larger then the existing SeaClean system and will fit within the engine room volume of current designs.

    With regard to urea consumption and tankage, it is a problem but should not be a show stopper. At present, the SCR is only required to be used when operating within a NOx ECA.

    Certification is a large/expensive hurdle and is probably among the most odious of the regulatory turds floating in the yachting pond. Sulfur oxides (SOx) were dealt with to large extent by reducing fuel sulfur content and by permitting after market technical firms like EnerYacht to design, build, and install exhaust scrubbers or what is called an "aftertreatment" system. The sulfur regulations were written to control what left the stack, not who is allowed to remove the offending emissions. The NOx regulations were written before technology existed to produce an aftertreatment system and have not changed. The yacht market is so small that major engine manufacturers see no benefit in making the investment in time and money required to serve our market. The cost of certifying an aftermarket aftertreatment system is high but as rebuildable engines become more scarce and yacht designers rob more engine room volume from newbuilds, we hope to see the certification barriers lowered.
  10. PacBlue

    PacBlue Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2009
    Messages:
    1,730
    Location:
    Dana Point, Ca
    Hopefully, yacht design will go back to creating the necessary machinery/treatment spaces first, then the appointments next as normal order of design operations.