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Motor & Sailing Vessels (MotorSailer)

Discussion in 'General Sailing Discussion' started by brian eiland, Mar 14, 2007.

  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    MotorSailers, MotorSailors..... They're just not a popular subject. Traditional motorsailers have always been such a compromise, they have fallen into disfavor in the market, and in the boating literature. The term has even had negative connotations for several decades now. Should not today's boats be faster and better with new materials, light marine diesels, and better shapes? Should not this be the sensible alternative, the common sense move up from the beloved family sailboat? When trawler options are discussed, suggestions of boredom arise. A lifetime of sail would be discarded, and what happens when the motor quits? Well, hopefully it won't quit, but one can always sail home in a boat with sails on it. For truly long-range cruising and/or remote exploration, the motorsailer can outshine both the sailing aux and the trawler types.

    We need to modernize the motorsailer. The multihull plan-form holds great promises to improve this breed. The long slender hulls of the catamaran type vessel have proven themselves to be real efficient to push under both power & sail. And not only are they efficient, but they can be pushed beyond the traditional hull-length/speed limitations. Just what the modern motorsailer needs, a far less compromising increase in both their sail & power performance, that allows for long-range, and remote area capabilities. In light airs, running one engine often is all that is needed to generate an apparent wind that allows the sails work harder, and the combination can provide much better results than either motoring or sailing alone, …….sailing synergy/harmony, the motor taking over in the lulls and the rig taking over in the puffs.

    With ever increasing fuel prices there is a bright future for Motor-Sailing vessels. And here I present one such future concept.

    "Sail, the historic implement of world exploration, has within itself many new horizons that beckon for pursuit, but you have to be willing to venture past charted waters." - Gary Hoyt

    This quote from Gary Hoyt has never been more illuminating than today when we consider that an inventive and resourceful gentleman, Tom Perkins, has 'ventured past charted waters' to bring us a modern version of the old square-rigger, the DynaRig. He has done it in a big way with a real-life 'proof-of-concept' aboard his innovative and fabulous new 290' superyacht, Maltese Falcon.

    I propose that this DynaRig is applicable to a catamaran Motor-Sailer

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  2. lurker

    lurker New Member

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    I wonder if the DynaRig can really combine the downwind performance of square rig and the upwind performance of fore-and-aft rig.

    Regardless, how cost effect can DynaRig mast be build? Tom Perkins used military grade carbon fiber. I can't imagine that a DynaRig mast can be build cheaply, at least with present day technology.
  3. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Building an unstayed carbon fibre mast will not be the biggest obstacle or cost, but you can not use the same advanced in-mast reefing system as on MF I guess. Something more simple has to be developed but this is doable.

    On sailing up or downwind with just one DynaRig, I can see that two would be a little better but on a catamaran you will have a more efficient angle of attack than on a healing monohull? Whatever, this can pretty easily be tested out on a model. If it works, it would also be the perfect RC-model...:)
  4. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    Cool design!

    OK, I'm guessing it has almost no drag downwind, but it becomes a delicate game of balance up-wind. So the cost isn't so much the structure of the mast, as are the electronics that reel in the upper sails in the event you need to reef.

    What sort of motion/wind sensor array would it take to trim her fast in the event of a sudden gust?
  5. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    If you mean to prevent a roll over, something similar to a fishing reel. Winches with adjustable brakes that release the tension in a dangerous gust...
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    RC Model

    Funny you should mention this. I put a posting on an RC model forum asking if someone who had a previous interest in doing a model of MF might be interested in doing this catamaran
  7. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Dangerous Gust

    I think Lars has an interesting point here.

    I might also draw you attention to this paragraph in my discription on the website;
    Reefing this DynaRig is done progressively from the top down. On Maltese Falcon it was found that the 'royals' themselves (those right at the top) accounted for 40% of the loads on the rig, and with those furled her angle of heel reduced dramatically. The overturning moments on our Dyna-rigged multihull should act accordingly. It might surprise you that the 'royals' on Maltese Falcon are constructed of remarkably light 2 oz Dacron, and are "effectively sacrificed in 80 knots of wind." In other words, it will allow 'blow-out protection' in microbursts and/or unseen severe squalls

    In gusty conditions I would recommend erroring on the side of safety and just sailing with reefed royals, and maybe even gallants (BTW, I made a mistake in labeling the sails and will attempt to correct it very soon....the gallants and the topsails should be reversed)
  8. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I might suggest you have a look here for a discussion of windward abilities of square-riggers:
    http://www.weatherlysquareriggers.com/

    It might surprise some folks, that very often the square rigger was not sailed dead downwind, but rather made a series of 'jibes' downwind to improve apparent wind flow over the sails.
  9. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Of course the Falcon has 3 masts. My hunch (and I admit it's only a hunch) is that the DynaRig concept lends itself best to multi-mast designs. For a single mast I would prefer a more conventional sail plan.

    I think a major factor holding back the multihull motorsailers is that they are not self-righting. Find some way to overcome that issue and bingo! The demand for multihulls would start climbing.

    Kelly
  10. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I can also appreciate the interaction that occurs between fore-to-aft sails in a conventional rig, and those that could occur between a multi-masted Dynarig. But usually it's a case of the one sail gaining and the other losing...sort of a cancelling out. A uni-rigged vessel might lose a little in pointing ability, but the far greater savings in money for a uni-rig certainly makes financial sense. And there is considerable less aero drag.

    The question of self-righting has always plagued the multihull. In this particular design I believe the mast and the yardarms could be built as watertight (sealed) entities by not requiring the very light weight sailcloths be furled-up inside the mast. Those sealed rigging pieces could provide for floatation in the unlikely event of capsize....in which case she would lie on her side to some degree. This could (and I emphasize 'could') provide for a righting method that would not exist if she were turtle.

    I am forever amazed at the powerboat crowd that speaks to this capsizing problem of multihulls without ever looking inwardly at taking some of the power designs offshore in a real sea.

    ...not a real big sea, but I would not want to be on this vessel in a BIG sea

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  11. KCook

    KCook Senior Member

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    Actually I suspect we are on the same wavelength on the capsizing issue. The monohull sailing yachts that achieve self-righting with a heavy keel make perfect sense (assuming keel does not decide to take a vacation). However, round bottom motoryachts that rely on very heavy displacement to achieve self-righting have always made me uneasy. Just seems like the extra mass means you are also that much closer to sinking? Druther take my chances with a sound semi-displacement design that can get out of its own way.

    Kelly
  12. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    -Drop the cargo!

    Yikes, meet your maker! ...I'm almost convinced the single mast motor/sailer could be the ideal rescue craft for the above crew, because, even 'turtled' you still have flotation. Flip a few matresses, and everyone could lay down in the dry. Not real comfortable, but prevents hypothermia 'till the 'copters arrive.

    Lars aced the instant-release problem, and I agree that a servo-drive scale model would be very useful for working out the yard thresholds.

    This may well lead you to incorporate a flare near the waterline for forward stability, ie: the 'light-bulb' hullform, because I have a feeling she will skirt downwind, and bury herself at the worst point of incline.
  13. lurker

    lurker New Member

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    So, what is the advantage of the DynoRig?

    I don't think that it carries more sail area than a aft-and-fore rigged cutter. I suppose that since each sail is smaller, it is much cheaper to replace the sail though more economical in the long run.

    The rotating base mechanism for the masts must be taking quite a bit of load, I thought that would cost quite a bit, no?
  14. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    Some contend the primary advantage, on a mono, is the lack of your reliance on the actual stays. As she flings to and fro, things that can break will, and so must be constantly inspected and monitored. Assume you had an urgent need to skirt the path of a hurricane, without adequate prep, or provisions.

    And, on a Cat, I imagine the pressures would be harder on those stay-points as well as discomforting on a bumpy ride, like being 'almost' strapped-in on a older wooden ferris-wheel. I'll assume Brian has done his homework on the stresses at the hull adjoinment-points, and the contemporary state of that art. But, it's sheer convention to assume the self-standing mast must be constructed with a rectilinear (wood/epoxy) core, which is why I suggested maybe a star-shaped spine, integral to an elliptical riser, yet anchored on an actual 'turntable,' which is sort of an inverse of the Falcon's super-gimble anchor array. Albeit, her designer is way out of my league. Maybe the orbital grouping is a giant servo motor...?
  15. MaxResolution

    MaxResolution Senior Member

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    All-up, I've studied boats, (online,) now for a total of around 220 tidal bores, always hinting at my inate desire to leap headlong into the eager, come what may. But for the sucking sound of the US economy, and one too many episodes of "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous," I would surely remain a land-lubber 'till my dying days!

    So, y'all tell me, am I a good BS-er, or what? Fact is, I've barely circumnavigated Walden Pond! ..Who in their right mind would let me aboard their yacht? :eek:
  16. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    MaxR, wrong thread but you are right, Robin Leach is not telling you much of interest when it comes to yachting as a source of income...;)

    But your knowledge of domestic installations could be useful onboard and the best way of approaching this market is to talk to the yacht brokers, especially those involved with new constructions. The magic word in this biz is "quality".
  17. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Simplfying Falcon's Dynarig

    I recently wrote with regards to an inquiry about a 40-ish version:

    Unlike my ‘single-masted ketch’ design that I feel is not necessarily appropriate for a vessel of less than 45 feet, the DynaRig is appropriate for this smaller size vessel. In fact a ‘3-panel’ dynarig might be considered rather than the 4 panels of my new 63 foot DynaRig cat design, or the 5 panels of Falcon. However, I would still favor the 4 panel configuration, as it offers more variation in reef-able sail areas. And with my simplified sail furling mechanisms, it doesn’t add that much weight or complication to the overall rig.



    Falcon’s dynarig was complicated by requiring the sails to be furled up inside the mast thru a hollow slot on one side;
    1) the mast itself needed a slot in itself all the way down one side of the already weaker side of an elliptical cross-section. This necessitated an internal structure be built into the carbon mast section to reinforce it at the slot area

    2) the furling mechanism then needed to be built inside the mast section, and a complicated track mechanism was required to guide the edges of the sails out onto the bridges to the yardarms & the yardarms themselves



    I am proposing a much simpler furling and track mechanism for this modern square-rigger concept:
    1) The mast will not have internal stowage of the sails, so no slot is required, nor internal support structure. It will be a simple elliptical section that will taper at either end to a smaller section at the top and a circular section at the bottom….not that much more complicated than an ordinary carbon mast for a sloop rigged vessel with a mainsail attached. It might also be a ‘sealed unit’ for ultimate flotation purposes.

    2) Each rectangular sail will furl around a ‘wire’ (PBO, Kevlar, Spectra, carbon, etc) sewn across its mid-girth, and having eyes at both ends that clevis pin into ‘continuous line furling drums’ as you might find on ‘Code’ type reaching sails. The sails are constructed of low-tech, light-weight ordinary Dacron, and are of such relatively small dimensions that when furled around a very small diameter ‘wire’, they present a very small diameter package to the elements when ‘stowed away’. Each individual sail panel can be quickly and easily replaced, and inexpensively as well.

    3) The furling drums are incorporated into the leading edges of the yardarms/bridges so as to present less windage, and they are’ stacked’ up vertically end to end in a line such that they ‘share’ bearings at either end. One small electric motor drives each panel for furling. For each panel of sail there are two (top & bottom) additional motors to unfurl the sail.

    4) The yardarm ‘bridges’ can be shorter in length than Falcon’s with many inherent advantages including the more readily usable ‘forestay arrangement’ with or without a ‘code’ type reaching sail. Shorter lever arms requires less power to rotate the rig as a whole.

    5) Three of the yardarms are of equal length thus less production cost…in fact probably these three would be only slightly more expensive than the elaborate furling/stowing booms now found on many ‘ordinary’, modern, short-handed sloop rigs.

    6) The low-tech, Dacron sails of this rig should present some considerable savings over those modern sails for Bermudan rigs, and help offset the other initial extra cost of the Dynarig.

    7) The sealed mast and yardarms could offer the flotation for the ultimate non-capsizing protection.

    These proposed changes to the original Falcon’s interpretation of the DynaRig concept should result in a less expensive version, which is just as viable in sailing characteristics as the Maltese Falcon is proving to be.
  18. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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  19. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Ted Hood’s new Expedition 55

    I've always had great respect for this gentleman Ted Hood, so it was with great interest that I read of his latest project, the Expedition 55, in the Oct issue of Cruising World magazine.

    What is most interesting is the apparent reluctance to use the term 'motorsailer'. Instead the popular notion tends to be to call them expedition yachts….long range yachts "as capable under power as under sail". I too could be accused of often using this 'expedition' term, but I'm still not afraid of the very descriptive word motorsailer. At any rate it is a pleasure to see these ocean capable cruising style vessels coming back to the forefront of sailing yacht design, in lieu of the 'racer/cruisers'.

    I won't get into all of the details of the article in Cruising World mag, but I will hi-lite a couple of the more interesting aspects. To facilitate a shallower draft he makes use of an older design know as the Scheel keel. And to better its windward performance he adds a centerboard to that keel. It will work GREAT, but I wouldn’t want to maintain it. Imagine the stuff that will find its way into this slot at the bottom of the keel, and then how high you might have to raise the boat to get at the exposed board. I think I would opt for just the plain Scheel keel.

    From a man who made his name in 'sails' (Hood Sailmakers was once the biggest loft in the world), it was pleasure to here him quoted, "always felt that wide beam and large genoas were both good for performance and readily adaptable to cruising boats." At older ages we need power assist for these sails, so he added power furling to all of the sails including the mainsail. Vertical battens facilitate an in-mast furling system rather than a boom furling one.

    He appreciates a nice size genoa sail for its power, as I have expounded for a number of years with my discussions of the slot effect and my mast-aft design. His inner forestaysail is also tacked well aft of the headstay to add versatility to the sail plan.

    A neat bit of seafaring subtlety lies behind the design of the inside steering station. The enclosure provides superlative shelter, but isn't part of the interior volume of the vessel.

    There is one other problem I find. When the young 'marketing guys' get there hands into it, there always seems to be a bit of a nudge to the upper end performance specs in order to compete with the multihull capabilities…sometimes to the point of exceeding displacement hull speeds.

    http://www.portsmouthmarine.com/Expedition55.htm

    https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1416555/0

    Ted Hood, Designer & Builder
    http://www.yachtworld.com/portsmouthmarine/portsmouthmarine_4.html

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  20. Loren Schweizer

    Loren Schweizer YF Associate Writer

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    Brian, I couldn't agree with you more regarding the 55 Expedition Ted Hood boat: yeah, let's take a 'round-the-world' vessel and add the complexity like an up/down centerboard.
    What were they thinking?