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Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden

Discussion in 'General Sailing Discussion' started by brian eiland, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. Kirok

    Kirok New Member

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    I just discovered this-- I'm the guy who bought the boat in southern Maryland. Now I know who designed her. Thanks to all who contributed!

    If anyone's interested, I'm keeping a (woefully rarely updated) blog on her restoration. It's at Kirk Pierce's blog | Institute of Maritime History

    Ben Stavis has also updated his page on the Rhodes #816 Discoverer design, 816-discoverer Does anyone know where the black-and-white photo on Ben's page came from? He can't remember who emailed it. I'd like a better copy-- it will come in handy when I get to the re-rigging stage, as the original mast and rigging are gone.

    Again, thanks to all who helped discover this-- stop by the marina on a weekend, Brian, I'll buy you a beer.

    Kirk
  2. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Welcome Kirk, I think it was me would found that photo. It was attached to a sales listing by Ardell in an old magazine I was thumbing thru. I think the color mag ad photo found by Tad would be more useful. Or you can contact a gentleman at Alden (I'll get you the name)

    Attached Files:

  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Hey Kirk, when you make that visit up north see if you can get a copy of the dwgs and the spec sheet. I'm still wondering about her overall length. I could have guessed she was more like 46' or more long when I stepped her off on several occassions when I was trying to figure out her origin. And we see that Ardell list her at 46,...and another reference at 45....etc.

    Did you ever measure her exactly? Would be interesting to see what the designer's spec sheet actually says?
  4. blackswansg

    blackswansg New Member

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    are you not a fan of william hand motorsailors?
  5. chuckb

    chuckb Senior Member

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    William Hand

    I know I'm a William Hand fan... knew it since I was a kid in Falmouth Mass... when walking the harbor and choosing "the boat I want when I grow up" :rolleyes:, it always came down to a WH motorsailer or a Huckins.

    A bit spendy in my opinion, but a great vessel is 1933 William Hand Motor Sailor Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

    Another one I lust after... Page Traditional Boats :: BURMA: A Very "Special" High Pedigree Hand Type Motor Sailer

    And I believe this one is a Winthrop Warner design... he apprenticed with Hand... http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=17504&url=

    This last one is another Warner, owned by my Uncle for a decade and one that had a huge influence on me.... ;) Connecticut History Online : Item Viewer
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I just never thought that Hand produced as nice a proportioned designs, but this one is rather nicely finished out.

    Opps, this is actually a Davis design,
    Designer R.O. Davis was certainly no rock star. In fact he received little notoriety in his day for his work. But nautical researchers now seem to agree that this unsung draftsman did a great deal of profound design work which others, such as William Hand, Jr. and Philip L. Rhodes took credit for. Argosy Venture (originally Holiday)) is the largest of the three yachts that actually bear Davis’ name. Her sister ships are 50’ Burma (now in New England) and 66’ Seer (now chartering in Tahiti).

    argosy-sailing ,William Hand.jpg

    argosy-sailing_2. William Hand, ps.jpg

    argosy-anchor, William Hand.jpg

    argosy_bow, William Hand.jpg


    ....a few more interior photos here, and history
    photos

    history
  7. blackswansg

    blackswansg New Member

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    i see burma a lot because she comes into camden frequently. it is a special boat. there is another nice motorsailor that i believe is a william hand boat located up the sassafras river in georgetown md.
  8. chuckb

    chuckb Senior Member

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    Beautiful!!
  9. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I think that bowsprit adds to her looks. And I like that low-aspect sail plan stretched out along the vessel rather than tall single-masted type rigs.

    I'm going to sketch up a modernized version of the Alden 57 I posted back in item #20 , and I have in mind 2 different sail rigs, one conventional, one that will surprise folks.
  10. chuckb

    chuckb Senior Member

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    Two engines / one prop?

    Reading the history on her I noted "Every motorsailer has its motor, and this one is well equipped with two 671 Detroit diesels which drive a single prop."

    I've heard of a single prop being able to be driven by the main OR the get home engine, but this sounds like 2 into 1 at the same time. It must use some sort of differential. Has anyone run across this type of setup?
  11. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    hI,

    Here you go. Page 4.

    Brochure: Wärtsilä marine reduction gears - Wärtsilä Corporation - (Version JPG) - Page n° 4 - PDF Catalogues | Documentation | Boating Brochures

    This is obviously bigger than you would find on the motor sailer but the general concept and idea is pretty much the same.

    Often seen used on Tugs and Trawlers
  12. Kirok

    Kirok New Member

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    No, but I will with a plumb-bob next time she's on the hard. Any tricks on how to get accurate lengths while she's in the slip? She's next-door to the lift slip, so I can walk along the heavy finger-pier along her starboard side.

    Kirk
  13. chuckb

    chuckb Senior Member

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    Sketch status?

    Brian, Sounds interesting, can't wait to see what you had in mind!

    Kiwi, thanks for the post re: PTI's... interesting stuff!

    Chuck
  14. chuckb

    chuckb Senior Member

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    Attached Files:

  15. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    LAYLA ,a Take On John Alden's "Miniature Ocean-Going Tug"

    I know, it's not a motorsailer, but it is another inspired design suggested by John Alden.

    It's just been posted on these forums over HERE:
    LAYLA, a John Alden inspired design by Rockport Marine - Boat Design Forums

    And there is a great link to a blog on the subject vessel, and some renderings

    An excerpt from a portion of that blog that caught my attention:

    A well known yacht designer once told me that from the time he had opened his office he had never prepared a single drawing that wasn’t paid for by a client. He was boasting, or so it seemed to me as I listened to him. His rationale seemed to be that the work was good because it was paid for. Now I have a stack of magazines here in the office filled with images of plastic fantastic designs utterly devoid of character. I have no doubt the designers were all paid in full for their efforts. Don’t get me wrong, yacht design needs clients. Without clients you’re just solving imaginary problems for imaginary people. I guess I just find the idea of assigning value to a man’s work according to whether or how much someone is willing to pay for it a bit depressing. For my part I hope the work I produce on my own time when I am inspired to create something is as high quality as the work I produce when I am inspired to fulfill the obligations of a contract. I’m with Majnun. Proclaim beauty where you find it. If people decide you’re crazy, so be it.

    LAYLA seems an appropriate name for this week’s post for there is a type of madness to the process of creating these designs, and some to be found in the people that pursue this type of work. There is also, I hope, a measure of beauty to the designs themselves. The point of these posts, if I’ve never clearly spelled it out, is that there so much more to yacht design than can be found in the offerings of production boatbuilders. On a more personal level,these posts help to manage my own affliction. I draw these boats, and more recently have begun to write about them, because they find a way into my head and I’d like to get them out. Certainly I hope that someone will see them, admire our work, and then approach us about getting the boat in their head out and down on paper. But that’s the rational part and it and doesn’t address the elementof compulsion involved. If I can get these boats out and down on paper, or in renderings,maybe then I can have my head back. Well at least for a little while
    .
  16. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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  17. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Alden Sportfishing Cruiser

    I was just going thru some old paper files and found this clipping I had saved of an 1941 50 ft Alden sportfishing cruiser. You can see the lineage with the later Hawksbill design

    It also had reminded me of another old wooden sportfisher, a 1941 43' Carl Adams I had once owned for a short period of time. Rumor had it that Hemmingway once fished off it.

    This vessel looks like it has some sort of mast on it?...maybe for a crow's nest or something. Maybe I'll put something over on the sportfish zone and see if any old timers recognize it.

    Attached Files:

  18. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Mystery Solved

    Just a note of summation....clarification.

    Firstly I had been for several years seeking to find out who exactly was the designer of this mystery vessel I had found sitting on the hard at a small marina in southern MD....was it a Rhodes or an Alden design. Well that has been solved with the submission by Tad Roberts. It is definitely the Discoverer model by Philip Rhodes, one of only 2 built.

    Secondly there was considerable disparity as to her actual length, particularly as the 'advertisement drawing' dug up by Tad had not specified her length. I had seen a number of different figures...44', 45', 46',...even 52'. I had stepped it off as an estimate on several occasions and come up with less than 44', maybe even 41' but could this be possible? I did a rough tape measurement one time, but when I came up with likely 42' I just couldn't believe it....not with a 3-windowed saloon deckhouse.

    Then Tad made the first good scaled-based estimate and came up with 44'. Just recently, Kirk, the new owner of that vessel in southern MD sent me a number of measurements between the major bulkheads on the vessel. When I scale these out on the exploded dwgs from the magazine ad, I very definitely come up with a vessel length of 44'....and a beam of 13' and a few inches.

    Now it so happens that this is extremely close to the same dimensions as the 44' Virginia Reel designs by Rhodes. Could these be the same hull designs?...with different superstructures? I suspect so, and this is what threw me off-base in recognizing this twin design for so long.

    ViriginiaReel profile, compare view.jpg

    44' Discoverer profile, compare view.jpg

    Looking closer we can see the progression of this design from the VirginiaReel to the Discoverer model. Wouldn't most owners like to have a 'one level' deck from all way at the stern, thru the aft deck area, and into the main deckhouse saloon,.......rather than that 3-different levels on Virginia Reel? To get those fishing chairs down a little closer to the WL meant the engines where going to have to move forward in under the mail saloon floor, but that's OK as this floor level will be raised to be 'one level' with the aft deck And we can get rid of those v-drives, and deck-floor engine hatches that invariably leak salt water down on the tops of our engines. Now we move that outdoor steering station up on to the top of the deckhouse to form a flybridge, thus allowing for a bigger main saloon (now 3 big side windows rather than 2). Nicely done I think, and all in the same length vessel.

    Discoverer still retained dual engines...two moderate sized Perkins in-line 6's. But what I detect on these drawings is a nice big opening designed to swing a single big prop rather than duals? He must have had this in mind when he drew up this design, however it appears as though all were built with twins....probably those cheap fuel days. I'd have a single robust in-line 6 myself for this modern day fuel pricing, and powerfull engine packages. Besides it would be easier to work around and service from either side with room to spare.

    ….more on these redesign thoughts later....
  19. arcticfjord2

    arcticfjord2 New Member

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    GM duals and quads

    There are gearboxes that connect either two or four 671s into a single shaft. My understanding is that they were developed in a short timeframe just before WWII to provide higher horsepower diesel units based on the mass produced 671s. This was to bypass the slow production rates of comparable larger horsepower single units by other manufacturers. Sundstrand Corp in Milwaukee may still offer the gearboxes, or at least parts and manuals. I had a dual unit on a recent 73 foot power boat of mine. The engines are "clutched" into the gearbox so either or both the engines can be utilized depending on the power/speed desired. Given that the 671s already have separate injector pumps for each cylinder...this plus having multiple power units for a single shaft provided exceptional survivability in wartime.
  20. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Laurent Giles Design

    Apparently that one sold as the listing link is no longer viable.

    But someone just brought this one to my attention. This is a lot of boat for the money,...certainly couldn't build anything like this for that kind of money.

    For Sale:
    60' Laurent Giles Design Ketch: $189,000 USD
    1976 60' Ketch "Princess Irene". Built to highest possible standards. Documented Vessel. The yacht is designed for ocean passage making with as few as two crew. Built in 1976 by Royal Huisman, Holland and outfitted by A. H. Moody, Southhampton, UK. Multiple redundant systems including propulsion
    For Sale: 60' Laurent Giles Design Ketch: $189,000 USD

    I'll post a few photos of her very nice interior so they are presevered for future reference. You can find many more at that link above.

    Attached Files: