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More illegal charter crackdown

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Pascal, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I've seen that boat on numerous occasions in Biscayne bay loaded with like 30 college aged people on it partying every time.
  3. AnotherKen

    AnotherKen New Member

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    That happens in the harbours of every major coastal city in the world and probably lots of the smaller ones too. I have personally seen it in Vancouver and Victoria in BC Canada. Eventually they will get prosecuted, usually due to unsafe operation.
  4. GhostriderIII

    GhostriderIII Member

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    It happens everywhere - from the Med to USA and back. Only way of stopping it - confiscate the vessel and flag the passports. He could have easily avoided this by not charging per head until he was in Bimini.
  5. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    Hope he has a large liability policy....
  6. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Yes that boat was always off the KB sandbar overloaded with “kids”. Been going on for years.

    There is another one that will probably be next... an old Bluewater now based at No Name Harbor. He used to be here and would bring back a bunch of drunks puking on the dock...

    The Bahamas are starting to crack down too on foreign boats without a charter license.
  7. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    On this topic, we have heard that bare boat charters using a demise charter contract are getting cracked down in Miami. Foreign flagged boats have been able to charter in us for years using a demise contract. Most of the large boat in New England are foreign flagged and this is how they do it. But Miami may be starting to re interrupt the rules. We meet with two lawyers that showed us how it's still lawful, but it appear to be dark gray.
  8. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    The problem with short term bareboat charters is the fine print

    1)- charterer must be able to pick his own crew although owner can recommend crew familiar with vessel...

    2)- Charter must be paying the crew directly under a separate contract

    3)- charterer must provide fuel and provision. This means the typically advertised all inclusive charter is illegal

    We ve been boarded while on charter a few years ago by a USCG unit which specialized in charters. First thing they asked for were the charter contracts. Both crew and vessel since we were bareboat (12 guests). I always made sure we had the paperwork even though the brokers were pretty clueless...I always had a set of contract ready for the charterer to sign in case the broker messed up

    If you go by the rules it s not dark grey.

    One of the benefit of US flag is that between 100 and 200 GT you can charter as an uninspected vessel carrying up to 12 pax without having to resort to bareboat and all the pitfalls
  9. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    We have two companies and boat owns one and crew is hired by others. As foreign flag we have to get a cruising lic. (No big deal) which states no commercial activity. The lawyers tell me that a demise charter is equivalent to stepping in the owners shoes and thus allowable. This is the gray area for me. We've chooses not to try this at the moment.
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Dark Gray or throw up green, it's an attempt to circumvent the US laws against commercial activity for foreign vessels and should lead to charges. You know what you're doing. The CG knows what you're doing. When you have to go to lawyers to figure out how to circumvent laws, then why can't you just follow the intent and spirit of the law and what others interpret the law to say.

    How does your insurer feel about you doing this? Probably fine since they don't know but rest assured something goes wrong and they'll know and attempt to find a way not to pay.
  11. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    Easy olderboater. Two lawyers confirmed that there is a clear legal president for demise charters that is not circumventing us laws. I do agree that the laws are far from clear. Insurer is fine as long as we follow port and flag rules at the same time.

    Your comment that if you have to go to a lawyer that this is a problem? Haven’t you often posted that you would never sign a contract without a lawyer looking over it? Time to go easier on the scotch buddy.

    We haven’t chosen to go down this route but the forum is about sharing informative and not about being immature ******* who be puts down someone from talking to a lawyer.
  12. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I disapprove of the practice and expressed that. It is circumventing the intent and spirit of the law in my opinion. In your opinion it's fine.

    As to the scotch, I've never had any in my life.

    I would never sign without a lawyer reviewing but that's much different than looking for a scheme that requires careful maneuvering by lawyers.

    I stand by my opinion. It's simply that, an opinion, and part of the forum is sharing opinions. So you don't like it, that's your right.

    Legal precedent doesn't always hold up when challenged. We need to be extremely careful about suggesting such on a forum that might lead someone to serious trouble.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 5:23 AM
  13. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Whether you personally disaprove of the bareboat charter practice and wish to call it a legal precedent which eventually will not hold up is your right but misleading.

    The USCG has published a number of documents detailing how a foreign vessel can charter and how even an uninspected boat under 100gt can charter with uo to 12 pax under a bareboat contracts. Actually here in miami they even have installed placards on the gates of marinas with a rule summary.

    The following isnt from Shady the lawyer or some party yacht charter broker on sobe.... it is from the USCG

    https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Con...291D3EAA816008BFEC11A80BC564EB4241068A94ACD2E

    As to insurance, getting an occasional charter endorsement on an existing policy is pretty common with no or little additional premium
  14. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I stand corrected, Pascal and apologize to Tim. The way he was expressing it, sounded like circumvention, but reading the page you cite, seems like an approved procedure.
  15. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I agree that it's legal, but here is where the issue lies in a large yacht being chartered "bareboat". A large yacht has a full time crew on it and unique systems. So how can the charterer really hire his own crew when he's really forced to hire the yachts full time crew. If the charterer does not hire the yachts full time crew, then you get into huge issues of having the charterers crew approved with the insurance company for every single charter, and really how many owners are going to allow Joe blow to hire some Captain the owner doesn't know to run their boat with it's very unique systems.

    I don't see it as the same as someone chartering a 50' lagoon sailing cat from one of those companies in the BVI's and being handed a list of 8 recommended independent Captains to choose from that don't work directly for the boat owner (charter company) or the ability to just run it themselves without a Captain.
  16. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    I agree with Captain J that this is confusing. And I apologize to older boater about the rude comment. The charter broker deals with most of this and the mainstream brokers do it well. Certainly having the charter guest pick their own crew is (usually) a bit silly. And the USCG Reg is the problem.. Either allow them or don't the regs lack common sense.
  17. saltysenior

    saltysenior Senior Member

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    I ran a 65' MY that chartered back in the 80's....made good $$$ doing it...however every time we chartered there was a requirement ( fuel , crew , Insurance , contract , etc ) that was not met ....the owner , agents , brokers , marina , where all happy doing this but I knew we were wrong....a friend who was a civil lawyer told me, because I owned my home , that I better not continue...after a long term charter ,the boat was sold and I now was able openly research the goings on.....glad I got away from it because the possibility of charges or lawsuits..

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