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MITseaAH

Discussion in 'General Sailing Discussion' started by brian eiland, Mar 28, 2005.

  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I was utilizing the search tool in this forum for any mention of the new motorsailer MITseaAH. I was not coming up with much info at all.

    Have I done something wrong, is the search tool working properly, or has there been very little discussion of her here on this forum? Sure seems she has gotten a lot of press in the magazines.

    I also saw mentioned that the owner was inspired partially by a vessel "Atlanta". Does any one know of this vessel?
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2005
  2. Tad

    Tad New Member

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    The most recent Atlanta is a 121' Dubois sloop built at Alloy Yachts in NZ and launched about 1997. She was the forerunner of Georgia, built for the same owner with topsides painted the same deep red.

    Tad
  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    MITseaAH motor sailer

    ....a letter I recently wrote to the creators of MITseaAh...

    Liebowitz & Pritchard
    Washington, NY
    www.LParch.com

    Pedrick Yacht Designs
    Newport, RI
    www.PedrickYachts.com

    Dear Sirs;

    I was just looking thru the latest BOAT USA International mag (Mar/Apr 05 issue), and came upon a sizable article about the new “MITseaAH” motor sailing vessel. This unusual and challenging design is receiving quite a bit of boating press at present, and apparently a lot of interest at this past years’ Ft. Lauderdale boat show. There was also a very good, extensive article & illustrations in the Apr 04 issue of Yachting World.

    What I find particularly interesting is the fact that an owner of a power vessel (and 5 previous ones) would commit to a new vessel design with a sailing rig on it!! Usually it’s the other way around, a case of an older sailor finally converting to a power vessel. Sure wish I could find such a progressive individual to consider building my power-sailing, gamefishing/motorsailing design www.RunningTideYachts.com/gamefishing/

    I applaud most all attempts to resurrect the motorsailer concept, as I feel it has been a sorely neglected subject in this modern boating world. Witness again my website reference, www.RunningTideYachts.com/motorsailing/, and the attached document I created for this past year’s Miami BoatShow, “Motorsailing Catamaran Concept”. The latest doubling of the crude oil prices might just spur more developments in the motorsailor arena.

    Back to the subject of the vessel “MITseaAH”. I really can appreciate the extraordinary efforts on the behalf of the creators of this vessel. They were really challenged to develop solutions to a tough number of requirements by the client. And they managed to come up with some very unique solutions.

    But here I would like to offer an alternative solution to satisfy that owner’s requirements. First lets look at some of his major requirements:

    1) the sailing rig needs to pass under a 127' high bridge for visits to the Statue of Liberty
    2) shallow draft to be able to moor in front of his house on Long Island in water of 7 foot depth
    3) shallow draft to visit some of ‘his favorite locations’, and ‘root out those shallow anchorages’
    4) top speed under power of at least 25 knots
    5) sail well & power well (I think the ‘sail well’ portion was an added challenge of the designers)
    6) accommodations for owner and up to ten guest
    7) maximize usable deck space for guest
    8) luxury of his present yacht

    I submit that all of these requirements could have been met by a 100-120 foot catamaran
    motorsailing vessel. For an example have a look at “Douce France” <http://www.charterbrochure.com/doucefrance/index.shtml> , <http://www.admirals.com/doucefrance/> . Now this vessel utilizes a two-masted ketch style sailing rig that might seem a little complicated for an owner not accustomed to sails. How about if we replaced that with my ‘single-masted ketch’ rig. <http://www.runningtideyachts.com/sail/> Everything roller-furls, no hoisting of sails, no stowing of sails, nor extensions of the mast height, a much more simple rig to build and operate. At the 127' upper limit it would look ‘in proportion’ (aesthetics) on a catamaran from 100 to 120 feet. And its lower center of effort (than a sloop) could allow for the use of a smaller beam to maintain sailing stability.

    With reference to the subject of stability look at the massive efforts and expense on MitSeaAh. A 15 ton lead bulb, suspended on a stainless fin keel (total 24 tons), that pivots up on precision-machined bearing blocks from a 21 foot draft to 7.5 feet. Special hydraulics to raise and lower the keel, as well as special hydraulic vaporizing considerations to account for the ‘accidental grounding’ of this huge assembly. And then a big hole up in the accommodations to accept the retracted keel. All of this is totally unnecessary on the big catamaran, as it gains its stability by a spread-out- form, saving tons of weight, cost, and complication, and damage potential. Plus we don’t need stabilizers at all, nor their complications, particularly those autogyro-controlled flaps on MITseaAH. And our draft could be as little as 4.5 to 5 feet.

    There are also a few massive efforts expended to attain a powering speed of 25 knots; two huge 12 cyl 3500 hp diesels, 204,000 gal fuel supply tanks, Servogear, computer-controlled, variable- pitch 4' dia props, and a very complicated bottom configuration with recesses to accommodate the big props, plus huge hydraulic rams to control the two vast trim tabs extending across the whole width of the transom, and finally a complicated retracting rudder system to operate in the area of these trim tabs. Sure sounds extremely complicated , expensive, and HEAVY. That much HP, and that much fuel, reminds me of another article I included in the archives of my website, “The Need For Speed” <http://www.runningtideyachts.com/articles/needforspeed.html>, wherein there is a discussion of the ever spiraling need for bigger engines to carry the ever increasing load of fuel required by the bigger engines. (in this case for some modern game fishing vessels).

    I would venture to guess that the alternative big catamaran design might have only required twin engines as small as 600 HP.....or lets go with a big extra margin and chose twin 1000 HP’s. Total, 2000 HP verses 7000 HP!! Quite a difference in fuel needs, weight needs, space needs, and propulsion gear sizing and configuration. And what about all of that extra aux power required to run the hydraulics required for MITseaAH’s trim tabs, auto-gyro flaps, controllable pitch props, keel control, extendable mast, etc, etc I know which vessel I would rather be charged with maintaining in good working order.

    Please excuse me just a moment while I digress to consider the fuel needs of these big engines. The owner looks forward to trips from Long Island, NY and Newport, RI to Bermuda. I believe it has been estimated that MITseaAh will burn about 60 % of her fuel load on this 25kt dash out the 630 miles from Newport to Bermuda. That works out to about 122,400 gal or about 200 gal/mile. At an average approaching $3.5 per gal (between here and Bermuda) this trip will run about $428K per one way trip. I’ll bet we could have cut this bill SUBSTANTIALLY with the catamaran hull form. And we might have been capable of maintaining a higher average transit speed in adverse conditions.

    Per the requirements for 10 guest (5 staterooms) plus owner, and lots of deck space, I don’t think there is much doubt this can all be achieved in the catamaran; and in very nice privacy manner. Luxury can be provided as well, particularly with attention to light weight construction as desired by the multihull vessel, and utilized on MitSeaAh.

    Excessive beam is the one attribute of a catamaran most sighted as a negative aspect, particularly in finding docking space. But in this case I detected an owner willing to ‘moor’ his vessel in front of his home, and I imagine he might be willing to do so in Bermuda, Newport, Nantucket, etc when available dock space is limited, or NA on short term notice. He has the toys onboard, and the nice stern boarding platform to make this connection with shore readily accessible.

    As I look back over this letter I almost feel the need to apologize for the negative overtones I’ve conveyed on MITseaAH. On the contrary, I really appreciate the efforts of her creators to solve the problems and produce a very unique new yacht. I can only hope the next time they are presented such a challenge, that they give some consideration to the catamaran vessel form.

    Regards,
    Brian Eiland
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2005
  4. Mike M

    Mike M New Member

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    Hi Brian, I visited your website and think that your design is very innovative. Especially with todays higher fuel costs, i think motorsailers will become more and more popular. However, as you mentioned, i would guess that the larger beam on a catamaran would turn off many potential buyers. There are many narrow canals and bridges (for example St. Maarten Simpson bay bridge) that are not friendly to catamarans. Also, i question your fuel burn rate on MitseaAH. I believe a more realistic number would be around 250 to 350 gallons per hour with 3500 HP Paxmans. I looked at a boat with MTU 16V396's that produce 3000 HP and the fuel burn was around 200 gallons per hour.
    Although i am not a sail boater, i do like the idea of efficent yachting and think some really innovative designs, like the wave piercing design or motorsailers like your design, are going to be the future of this industry.

    Mike
  5. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Fuel Burn Rate

    Mike, I must admit to not being familar at all with fuel burn rates on these big power vessels. I took the figures from the article in Yachting World wherein they had published the "60% of available fuel" for the trip from Newport to Bermuda at 25kts in 25 hours.

    It sounded like a LOT to me, but then the vessel is also carrying a LOT of fuel to be capable of trans-ocean range while carrying around a LOT of weight.
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Mitseaah under sail

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  7. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    MITseaAH's bottom

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  8. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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  9. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    For Sale

    This vessel is now for sale...but who can afford these fuel bills :eek: in this day and age

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  10. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Brian
    I was docked next to the Mitseaha once and talked to the crew. They told me the concept of motor sailor sounds good in thery but does not really work well in real life. Look at all the square footage living area you loose as a motor sail boat compared to a regular motor yacht of the same LOA with more decks. The Mitseaha might as well be just a sail boat. When spending money for purchase, motor sailor is not a good value compared to other options.
  11. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    I love motor sailors, boats with steering both indoors and outdoors that performs good under both power and sail. Some want more sailing power and have more sails, some like to have more engine power, like MITseaAH.

    I think Perini has built some of the nicest though....:)
  12. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

    I might suggest you look thru this pretty extensive discussion of some of these 'motorsailer' subjects:

    Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499

    (sorry Gary, I started these discussions on another forum before I joined this one)
  13. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Don't get me wrong Brian.. I was not talking about the engineering side of design of the motor sailor not working well in real life.
    I was talking about the options you will have when spending the sort of $$$$ for a vessel to purchase and what benifiets or losses for each option. The motor sailor cost a lot more to build than the normal sail boat. So than why build a motor sailor aoppose to just a sail boat or just a motor yacht with more living acomodations...?
    This is not neccesarly my opinoun, just what had been conveyed to me in the past about the Mitaseaha. Other can feel very differently about it. Plus it is some times quite astounding to see what sells and what doesn't. Like every one knows Italian yachts can very problematic, yet they sell more than anyone almost....
  14. Castlerock

    Castlerock Senior Member

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  15. Yacht News

    Yacht News YF News Editor

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    Well to pick and lure buyers to buy this vessel, and also BROKERS, a half of a million dollar bonus has been put in place for any broker who can apparently sell her before Novemeber 20th. 18.9-Million USD is her current asking price and she is at the ongoing Fort Lauderdale International Boat Show.
  16. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Looks like I've made a BIG mistake. That fuel capacity figure is just plain wrong....don't know where I got it but I'm almost sure I copied it from some text in an early magazine article on the vessel.

    Turns out her fuel capacity is quoted as 54,000 liters, 14,267 gallons
    http://www.***************.com/yachts/details/680

    Now if she uses 60% of that capacity to make quoted trip it would be 8,560 gals. At $3.5 per gallon, the trip would cost about $30,000 in fuel.

    Sorry about that mistake