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Malahne - 1937 Camper & Nicholsons 53.95m motor yacht

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by david_japp, Feb 22, 2013.

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  1. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    My apologies for being offended and responding.
  2. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    You seem bright enough to do so with a level of civility. Yachting, particularly in the age of the boats that you seem to be the most fond of, is a gentlemanly pastime.
  3. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    I know plenty of true gentlemen, going back generations, that carried around a useful quantity of sharp retort. I just don't tolerate snark and absolutes. The work is too complex and too gray for either. So when given, I often return.

    Feel free to call me out at any time. My shoulders are broad enough to handle the burden alone.
  4. Ken Bracewell

    Ken Bracewell Senior Member

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    Sharp I can appreciate. Blunt and dull, not so much.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    You have to compare them at the same speed...… 20 knots in a 53' C and 20-24 knots in the 54' GT. The 54' is a far more stable boat in regards to a beam sea and stern sea tracks straight and eats up a head sea. The 54' is a great running boat, also great running at 35 knots, but you have to understand at 35' knots the ride changes (on all boats at that speed compared to 20-24 knots). The 53' was a very good running boat for it's day, but hull design has come A LONG WAY. And, funny enough, the new(ish) 45' will leave both of them in the dust in a rough sea.

    A lot of the hull designs in the 1960's-2000 were trial and error, and it was very common for builders to add things to a hull design after hull 1-5 to try to improve ride (a chine, spray rails, etc., moving tankage). All of that stuff is already figured out now before the mold is even built via Computer modeling, cad/cam, tank testing and various other methods. As far as SF hull design goes, both Blount and Peters (and others) continue to learn and grow and adjust their designs and really are at the top of their game IMO.

    I so agree with Ken that we have gotten way off topic as far as this thread goes.
  6. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    Compare them at speed. You have no choice as the 53c isn't going to cruise in the high 20's. Run them both at 18-20 into the teeth of 10 footers for a few hours. No doubt whatsoever in my mind with regards to howdy boat was built and rode. Absolutely no doubt where I'd want my feet planted during that trip. But feel free to convince me that hull modifications made during trial and error manipulations of years between the two boats in consideration have anything whatsoever to do with the outcome of a comparable sea trial. Tell me some stories about the snappy roll of a Hatt 50 MY, as if it matters.

    Or just shut down the conversation with your overwhelming evidence of years at the helm of various layouts and designs, while not have stepped foot onto the same dock as the boat I am referencing. Tell me how "superior" the new hull is. Won't change the facts of the hours I had aboard her, and it won't camouflage the strong preference you have to anything new over anything old that apparently belongs in a maritime museum and not on your visual horizon.

    Hull designs have come a long way. So have engine designs. So has the market preference for speed in that class. So what? They've achieved the speed and performance that is required by it. Don't mind the price tag delta. Don't mind the context of the original point of discussion here. Just shut up and go buy the new thing. Ditch the old thing. Throw out the dated gear. Buy all new stuff. Great if you have the budget, but that doesn't equate to a certain outcome. I only makes you feel better.

    You haven't done what it is that I have done to one of these boats, and therefore you have no concept of the outcomes achieved. But go ahead and tell me about the countless hours at the helm of some other boat. As if that has any merit for the conversation.
  7. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    Yes, after an exchange or two, sometimes dull and blunt is called for. I believe my post was appropriate. Again, my apologies to anyone if I was offended.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I have done EXACTLY what you are speaking of, and have completely refit several yachts over the years for my customers, considering I own a Yacht Management business in Fort Lauderdale since 2003. Have been in the industry since 1997. I have seen all of the major expenses that you don't realize until you get into the project, all of the what if's, should be done's, might as well since we have this apart's. I've seen how the budget keeps growing as well as the expenses and time it takes to finish, mainly on yachts larger than yours in the 100' range but also some smaller SF and Yachts. I also have the joy of dealing with dozens of sub-contractors who don't come in at budget, don't finish when they're supposed to, or don't do the job properly. Meanwhile the more work there is, the more I make managing the project and doing some of the work, and I still advise most of my customers to avoid it. I had a customer that had the interior re-stained 7 TIMES because he wanted a certain shade.

    I don't have a preference for everything new, I have a preference for REALITY and cannot recommend to 98% of my customers to dump 2x the amount of money fixing a boat, than it will be worth when they're finished. WHO wouldn't want a boat that runs and rides better and is faster and newer at the same price and the interior and all of your clothes inside don't smell like exhaust, diesel, oil and Detroit diesel because of the full length bilges, split engine rooms and other issues of that era?

    I have run several 53' C's over the years I even almost bought a repo in 2010 to redo, the newer 52's, the even newer 54's and the 54' GT's and several of each. I run 150 different yachts per year and do 10,000-15,000 NM's , every year since 2004.
  9. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    That's a lot of bloviating over your resume. Congratulations. There wasn't a better strength or quality of ride on the water than the 53c I rebuilt in its class. Do tell me more.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I gave you my experience because I have run all of the different models, so can speak to their ride and build quality.

    There wasn't a better strength or quality of ride on the water than the 53C AT THAT TIME, that time is long gone and ride quality has far surpassed it in newer designs. The 53' C is well known for rolling a lot in a beam sea. 15'10 of beam on a 53' boat and a lot of height will do that. You're so prejudiced to your own mindset that no amount of proof would ever change that. Good luck.

    Next you're going to tell me how 32 volt systems in this day and age are far superior to 24 volts.
  11. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    You insist on beating this dead horse.

    With ALL of your profound experience, with ALL of your countless hours aboard every make and model of everything that ever floated, with ALL of your insight into the comparisons and contrasts between different models from any one boat builder, with ALL of this phenomenal omniscience you profess.....

    You know nothing whatsoever about the boat that I built. You've never seen it, stepped aboard it, watched it at sea, touched the helm. You know nothing of its structural redesign. You know nothing of its incredibly lightened overall weight and lowered COG. No, you don't know a damned thing, yet you insist on trying to tell me more while regurgitating nonsense about "my" prejudiced mindset. So go strap either 32 or 24 volts to your man parts and stop trying to sell a song about something you know absolutely nothing about.

    Good luck, and please stop telling me more.
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    How did you incredibly lighten it without effect strength?

    As great a boat it is, you should list it on Yachtworld for $3.5 million. I'm sure you will have to fend off multiple buyers that have a bidding war. An old hull design is still an old hull design...….Heck start a thread on here and show us everything you did.
  13. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    Your arrogance knows no bounds, yet it's your Achilles and leaves you wanting. You know, in your 20 years of "yacht management" I'm sure you've dabbled in some refits, maybe even some "extreme makeovers" of a vessel or two. But you've never done to a boat what I've done, several times, and you won't understand the quality that can be produced. Why? Well, because you obviously know better than the rest. The last vessel I want to board and rely upon the experience, judgement, and decision making of another is one operated by someone displaying the characteristics of your personality.

    I wouldn't need to be compensated $3.5mm on the sale of my boat. I had nowhere near that much invested, and I didn't build her for profit. I built her for me. She's been sold as I moved on to a different type of vessel for my lifestyle, and in doing so I again took on a similar type of project. The owner bought her knowing that "newer" does not equate to "better". He also understood a wise decision and valued a quality peace of mind.
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  14. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    And just for fun, I'll give you a hand:
    • Lightened, well, much of that was easy by simply replacing the old Detroits and Allisons with modern Cats and Twins. Then out with much of the solid fiberglass (and wood interior walls) up top, and extensively implementing nidacore. I was able to lose an estimated ton between the cabin sole and the flybridge alone.
    • As for strength? Nidacore is plenty strong, as is the original Hatt hull, but I rebuilt the interior structure, replacing the 3/4" intermediate bulkheads with 1.5" resin penetrated marine plywood replacements (again, adding weight to the ver bottom of the vessel, as well as the entire floor support structure of the front area, replacing the floating 5/8" plywood truss system with 1.25" integrated/structural stringers.
    • Hatt had tabbed in many of the structural members. I fully glassed them while spreading the glass load out 12 to 18 inches in some areas.
    This was a very careful and methodical rebuild over a 2 year period. I've no plans to do this for anyone else, so I have no need to start a thread and display my work. I do know quite confidently that there is not a better boat on the water in its class. Yes, there are faster ones, more fuel efficient ones. The hull does have its trade offs, speed for softness. That's why Tom Slane makes a living doing what he does. Fishermen understand the quality of the boats.
  15. Enyar

    Enyar New Member

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    Do you have a build thread for your 53?
  16. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    I did post several things on Sam's forum with regards to the build. It took place from 2007 to 2010 with some very helpful input from Slane. Boat has since been sold and is roaming the Bahamas at last contact, back in early March.

    IMG_2859.jpeg DSCN2646.jpeg
  17. Enyar

    Enyar New Member

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    The old 53s are great value right now, same for pretty much any old Hatt. What kind of numbers did you see with the weight loss/repower?

    What's your user name on the Sams Marine forums?
  18. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    Same user.

    Repowered from the DD 8's with Allisons to Cat C15 with TD. Main salon floor and all interior cabinets and walls were nidacore. Main salon and cockpit structure was aluminum box tubing. Salon floor was built to be 100% removable for full access, yet strong and light. Bridge and hard top all nidacore. Dropped the center of gravity significantly and shed perhaps 5 tons. We were around 52500-53500# wet. Rebuilt and stiffened the stringers and bulkheads throughout. New tanks integral to the hull, eliminating the old foam used to install the original tanks, the source of the Hatteras odor. Boat is a beast. We'd typically cruise 20, but 22 was available. WOT was around 26, maybe 27 in perfect conditions. 29 knots on that hull would have the boat riding up on its keel and falling over. Saw a 53c with new 900 Volvo's being de-tuned for safety in Freeport one year. My guess is that owner had an eventual plan to shave the keel and restore the power.

    Yes, they're terrific values. An owner could do my project for a lot less money and a lot less invasiveness and time with what I learned along the way.
  19. Enyar

    Enyar New Member

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    What was the fuel burn at cruise?
  20. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    1750 RPM 18 Knots 21 GPH
    1800 RPM 18.5 Knots 22 GPH
    1850 RPM 20 Knots 23 GPH
    1900 RPM 21 Knots 24 GPH
    1950 RPM 22 Knots 26 GPH
    2000 RPM 23 Knots 27 GPH
    2050 RPM 24 Knots 28 GPH
    2200 RPM 25 Knots 31 GPH
    2325 RPM 27 Knots 34 GPH