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live aboard boat

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by paulga, Nov 26, 2017.

  1. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    No, not at all. Chevies because they offer pretty good features for OK money. Chevies, not Bentleys.

    -Chris
  2. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    You cant compare a diesel powered bertram to a gas powered aft cabin sea ray or carver. Construction quality, systems, sea handling is on a whole other level but if you just want a floating condo, the lighter built aft cabin is a better choice.

    If you intend on using the boat as a boat, then a more seaworthy boat, diesel powered, may be a better choice in the long run. That said, as a first boat and being unsure of hwo long you re going to keep it, you may want to limit your losses with a cheaper boat...

    You mentioned financing... financing on older boats is a lot more difficult to get and so is insurance. You really need to look at your finances carefully to see what you csn really afford to spend on the boat. Buying is the easy part... maintenance, dockage, insurance add up very quickly compared to owning a home. Then when you add financing, the budget quickly gets pretty big and can total 20% or more of the initial purchase orice.
  3. 30West

    30West Member

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    I think you are on the right track. You will have to get on boats and get a feel for how much room they have, nobody can tell you how much room you will need to live aboard. But these should do for most people, especially if you still have your apartment.

    Which boat for your first boat? I like Sea Rays, they aren't uber high quality, but usually a good price and well known brand. There are always buyers looking for Sea Rays, and sellers selling, so you can usually sell pretty easily when the time comes. There are other brands similar, with more and less quality, but Sea Ray is an easy boat to get into and out of.

    It is still a big chunk of money, and you can lose a lot of it quickly if it has a problem you didn't price into the purchase. For a first-time buyer, you need to have very good surveyors go over every system. Surveyors don't always turn each valve and switch to make sure you know what does and doesn't work. These boats are probably out of the water for winter, you can get the hull and structure surveyed better out of the water, but still have to sea-trial, go over all the systems while running, to have a more complete picture of what you are looking at.

    Sea Ray is a high-volume production boat, and as has been mentioned more of a Chevy. I disagree that this level boat is just less fancy and well-equipped compared to a Hatteras or other high-end boat. High-end yachts are built differently, normally, with some notable exceptions. They are designed in a more expensive way, fabricated with heavier and more expensive structure and methods and materials. Their hinges and cleats and bulkheads and decks are attached to stronger structure with better and more fasteners. They use slightly or much better hardware, especially in critical places. They leave better access to systems for maintenance. They install higher grade appliances, use better materials for finish work. These are all subtle differences when you step on the boat, but dramatic differences when you work on the boat, and when it gets older that really starts to matter. They hold up, and they hold their value, an older high-end boat can be a great value. Even if they cost a lot of money to refurbish, they can be worth it, while a lesser boat might not be worth the cost of necessary repairs.

    I'm in something like the same situation as you, bought the aft-cabin 40' Cruisers you see in my avatar a little more than a year ago, without a lot of knowledge about it. I got a great deal on it, it surveyed out well, I did very well in a situation that turned most buyers away. I used to work in the boating industry, long ago, still around it a lot, but a lot of specifics to re-learn. If my family really likes boating, and I really like it, I'll start looking for a more serious boat. But this boat is a great starter. I'm actually quite impressed with this boat, I didn't think I'd really like it, but the darn thing keeps impressing me in handling rough water, and in maintaining systems, and in relaxing and entertaining on it. I may not want to replace it, if I do it will be mostly out of wanting a more impressive boat, and that part of me is losing influence.

    Of the Sea Rays you posted, I personally like the most expensive one, the '03. It is ugly, but I think that about most boats that size and layout, including mine. Other people seem to like them, so maybe it is just me. The other two Sea Rays have 7.4l engines, not enough engine for that size boat to plane out well and long. I like having slightly too much engine, the '03 has the 8.1l engines and I like mine, a lot. But they do have problems in salt water with salt getting into the intake valves and destroying the engine. It would be good if they have pictures of the riser replacement, showing the inside of the manifold and valves, with no rust. If you aren't going to take this boat out on the water much, the 7.4l engine will be great. I don't know your budget or situation, so you will have to do some learning and deciding. I enjoy looking at boats, if you don't mind it I'd look at as many as possible. Most boats will be out of the water now, so you can check out the running gear and hulls, you will need to see them in the water eventually.
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2017
  4. paulga

    paulga Member

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    I have no skills on boats but just starting to pick up knowledge. my budget is somewhere within 150k.
    is the 8.1L more susceptible to sucking in salt water that destroys the engine than 7.4L (because of more power). the riser is replaced means the engine was damaged once in this way?
    for living aboard, power and speed is secondary to consider. i even think to cruise at 7 knots hull speed to maybe reach 1 mpg
    I found this Cruisers Yacht 405 with only 350 engine hours: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...nglewood-Cliffs/NJ/United-States#.WiKsuVVKsuV
    is this make one step up than Sea Ray?
    2003 Cruisers Yacht 4050 diesel has a suggested list price of 453k and average retail price at 129k on http://www.nadaguides.com, so is 129k closer to the true market value of the boat?
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Nada is about as reliable on boats as a perfect stranger on the streets in Omaha. Do not use it as a value guide. A broker should be able to access soldboats to assist you and others should have market knowledge. No, I wouldn't call a Cruisers a step up. Different and less production. That's all.
  6. paulga

    paulga Member

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    a broker dealer usually claims he works for both sides, and the closing price is a mutual decision, but a dealer might actually work more for the seller. I doubt if it's necessary to hire a broker to work for me. it's not a high value super yacht, and it's a question whether the price the broker can negotiate down can justify his fee.

    if I'm going to see this boat next week: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...nglewood-Cliffs/NJ/United-States#.WiScj0qnFPY, is it customary to bring a broker/ surveyor? if the dealer is ok about it, how can I tentatively offer 20k lower than its asking price without making ppl laugh?
  7. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    A broker never works for both sides. Can't do so. Most of them work for the seller, unless you get a buyer's broker, which you really do need.

    You may take someone more knowledgeable than you along to look. Survey comes later. You can offer whatever you want.
  8. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Manifolds and risers should be changed every 5-7 years on a gas inboard on all boats in saltwater. With the exception of crusader engines that have fresh water cooled manifolds, so only the risers need to be changed every 5-7 years. This is the golden rule, pretty much regardless of how much use they see.

    Don't overlook Silverton. I've taken care of a 372 (late 90's boat) for 10 years. Build quality is actually pretty good on it, most stuff is easy to access for maintenance and it has a ton of useful room for it's size.
  9. paulga

    paulga Member

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    is it an advantage of crusader than other gas engines say MerCruiser/volvo (to not need to change manifolds together with risers)? Do diesel engines (like Yanmar) need to change manifolds or risers periodically?

    I found two Silverton that are relatively newer:

    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...3031111/OAKDALE/NY/United-States#.WiSv3lVKsuU
    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...138402/Longport/NJ/United-States#.WiSuQlVKsuU

    (1) is it strange the 2004 boat only has 80 engine hours? the 2004 boat is better than 2003 boat by all listed means, but its asking 4k lower price?
    (2) is a 35' boat good size for live aboard?
    (3) both are listed as 35', but both have an LOA 40ft. the docking slip fee will use the LOA (40ft), right?
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, the manifolds are a lot more expensive to do with the risers. With crusaders you should only need to change the risers, which is a lot less labor AND you're not buying 4 manifolds every time. Generally one does not have to change diesel manifolds ever, and it's also very very rare to change diesel risers on main engines. Usually if they leak, they leak externally, whereas gas manifolds and risers leak into the engine and destroy it.

    1. Yes, the hours are extremely low for the age and I would survey the engines extremely carefully unless they've been recently rebuilt which is why the hours are so low. Generally boaters accumulate at least 100 hours per year of use.

    2. It ALL depends on your space needs. I could live on the 372 carver due to it's very volumous layout, whereas I couldn't with most 45' trawlers.

    3. Most marina's charge based upon the advertised length (35'), in more remote cases they get out a tape measure and charge on overall or simply charge based on the slip size you're in. But generally it's based on the advertised length not LOA.
  11. 30West

    30West Member

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    From the pictures, the 2004 looks like it has a lot of wear, perhaps it was used a lot as a vacation home. It can be cleaned up. You can do a lot with the interior for less than a little in the engine room. Unused engines aren't always a good thing, best get the engines checked well.

    The cruising and top speeds seem really low for that much power in that size boat, find out what it was originally specified to do for top speed. If it can't perform as well now, it could be drag from a dirty hull, or engines have a problem.

    A 35' is big enough for most couples for long periods, big enough for two couples for a few days, or a bigger group for a day trip. But you'll have to assess that yourself in person. If the ceilings are low or windows small, it can seem more confining. If it is set up so you have to move from your comfortable spot to let people past, that gets old fast.
  12. 30West

    30West Member

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    That looks like a good deal, from a distance. It looks like you are looking at boats that do what you are after, now just looking to find a good deal.
  13. 30West

    30West Member

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    You should expect 2mpg at hull speed.
    I've been told that, and since I own a Cruisers I want to believe it, but I'm not finding it all that much higher quality. There are things I know Sea Ray didn't do as well in building: thicker supports and better thought out access to systems, the hull seems more rigid. But most of the systems are the same I find in Sea Ray. Cruisers seems a little more conservative in build, less flair, but that varies with model and year.
  14. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    There's an owner's club, and it's not uncommon to join (modest annual fee, mostly for anti-spam stuff) to ask questions like that. One of the members is a broker and he apparently often acts as a buyer's broker. Google is your friend.

    I know a liveaboard couple on a 39MY and another on a 43MY. Those are getting into "diesel required" territory... and the latter is fairly huge inside.

    -Chris
  15. paulga

    paulga Member

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    so a diesel engine costs more at buy, but gives more power, better mpg and lower cost in maintenance and repair in the long run?
  16. 30West

    30West Member

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    Diesels usually cost more to buy, can be more power but I've seen too many boats this size with undersized engines, better mpg especially at cruise plane, higher cost to maintain and repair and replace. You can get some of the higher purchase price back in higher selling cost.

    I do a few long runs in the summer at cruise speed, but otherwise a lot of slower day or overnight cruises, quick runs to nearby harbors or restaurants, anchor at the dunes to swim and tan and socialize, and sunset cruises. I will never burn enough gas to offset the higher cost to own diesels. I love diesels, but the return on higher investment is not there. And not everyone loves diesel sound and smell and possible soot. If I burned more fuel I'd look to replace my boat with a diesel boat.

    Gas engines have the downside of increased carbon monoxide, and the gas in your fuel tanks is much more flammable. Most boats you will look at have carbon monoxide and gas fume detectors. Statistically, there are far more boat fires from electrical problems than gasoline vapors igniting, and the gas fires are almost exclusively on older boats than you are considering.

    http://www.boats.com/resources/boat-engines-choosing-gas-or-diesel/#.WiW3sExuJRQ

    http://www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm
  17. paulga

    paulga Member

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    when you say old Bert, do you mean Bert 37 convertible? like this one: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...088242/Cape-May/NJ/United-States#.WjJzSN-nFPY
    this boat shape does look more like a boat, and I like the capability of fishing. but being an old boat, it might be difficult for reasonable financing and insurance. I heard the maintenance cost of this kind of boat is $ 1k per ft per year, if it's true, what's the annual maintenance cost of an aft cabin (35 - 40') like this http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...77/Glen-Burnie/MD/United-States#.WjEbtN-nFPZ?

    I've seen this Sea Ray boat last weekend, and it's bigger than I want.
    http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...769/Long-Branch/NJ/United-States#.WjEbsd-nFPb
  18. getreelin

    getreelin New Member

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    If you still havent made a decision you may want to look at something in the trawler class, say a Grand Bank or a Monk. They are roomy inside, have the ammenities but are considerably slower...but the trade off is fuel efficency. If you are not looking to do any fishing or make fast time I would seriously consider looking at one. Kinda made to live aboard
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Trawlers in this size range don't make good liveaboards in my opinion. They're pretty cramped below where the living quarters are. The woodwork is usually very dark, making them feel even smaller, and they're not really volumous compared to a Silverton, Carver, Searay etc. as the wide side decks take up a ton of interior space.

    You can run almost any diesel boat slow and get fuel efficiency if you choose to do so. Problem with say a 42' trawler, lets say a Grand Banks, hull speed is 7.2 knots. It will not displace anymore water. If you get into a 4 knot current, you're down to below 4 knots speed over ground. With semi displacement, you don't hit a brick wall (hull speed) when you get into current and current doesn't have nearly as much of an effect on it.
  20. getreelin

    getreelin New Member

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    Your points are all very well taken, specifically the As with all boats, you have to give something to get something.
    In thc case of the boats you mentioned, they indeed are more spacious on the inside, but the comprimise is that your inside.
    When Im on a vessel I like to spend as much time outside/ above deck as possible to enjoy the experience. Other peoples mileage may vary.
    When it comes to hulls there is also the "fast trawel" as an option.