Discussion in 'Popular Yacht Topics' started by mwagner1, Aug 16, 2012.
Taksan, What is the 35m limit you refer to in your last two posts?
Yachts over 35m OA cannot access the majority of the Great Barrier Reef. They are only allowed in certain (uninteresting) spots if between 35m and 70m. Yachts over 70m have virtually no access to the GBR. Hence the lack of large yachts in Australia considering the countries wealth and the number of yacht owners. Once you go above 35m your severely restricted. There are a rather large number of 34.99m registered yachts in Australia.
When did that come into effect?
When the marine park was proclaimed. It's why big boats rarely visit the GBR.
GBR Marine Parks Legal Requirements
There are a number of restrictions listed on the official state website.
"There are specific management arrangements for anchoring in the Cairns, Hinchinbrook and Whitsunday Planning Areas:"
See the section at the bottom labeled Marine Parks Legal Requirements for links to specific area pages and PDFs of the management plans.
Anchoring and mooring - GBRMPA
I was wondering why cats, cat wave piercers and other etc "unconventional" boats were coming out of Australia and all seemed to be "35m" with large accommodation for that size compared to convention monohull.
It is now clear to me... regulation... and shallow waters!
Deadly combination sometime too!
I did look at a Horizon a couple years ago. Very solid build quality... first rate. Looking over there vacuum RTM ops... probably the best I have seen and in the yacht world looking at the results on the boat... and note I have a family member that is an expert in advance composite construction and total quality. He said, "first rate for boat builders". Workmanship was very very good too.
However, I was not happy with the interior style... (not fabrication). The issue is that is what I see first and I suppose if one got a proper designer for exterior and interior esthetics it would be a real possibility. I did not visit the yard (others did) because I dread long flights and that would limit my ability to check up as it is on the other side of the globe... which is the only real problem. This is my issue with NZ and AU builders so far to go... for me at least.
Talking of Burger they do make nice boats but they are too far for me too! Check out my post on the Cat engine re-power posting! I wonder how that yard is doing having not heard much lately.
We should not blame a semi custom or custom boat builder for the taste of an internal design. You get what you ask for. Every region or even country has its own taste for internal design. And as far as Asian customers are concerned, their taste is very different from the European or American customers. But that is ok. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you want something like this, they will build it for you. On Italian yards, you are stuck with Italo Design (and Italian quality ).
Example of an Horizon E-84 interior.
I was there 98/99 on a 55m boat and we cruised up and down no problems, needed a pilot everywhere in port though even to be turned around at NQEA
Marine park Regs came in around 2004 ....
Liam, i share your thoughts regarding SanLorenzo
Liam, i share your thoughts regarding Codecasa and SanLorenzo. How would you rate recently revived Admiral-Tecnomar? One of my customers thinks to go for their 40 m semi-displacement project, but i'm very skeptical about this shipyard....
honestly I do not know much about the Tecnomar-Admiral and how they fare quality wise today.
What seems to be is that they are doing well in sales.... Is it a question of giving the best prices, a good average of quality-price, or quality alone. This I do not know.
The old Aldmiral built very good fast yachts...
However if I had a choice and wanted a semi-displacement built in Italy I would opt for the new Baglietto, as the new management seems very much to know what they are doing. After Baglietto I would look at Overmarine Mangusta, Sanlorenzo, and Mondomarine.
Liam, thankx a lot for your reply! Do you know what is the background of the new guys at Baglietto? I know people MondoMarine and Sanlorenzo , who are are just great and very friendly (IMHO), but do know nothing about Baglietto. Was the yard put back into operation after some difficulties or what?
hmm interesting question...
Anyways my reply is all about the feedback Baglietto is leaving since it restarted to operate about over a year ago.
Gavio the new owner first of all seems to be a passionate guy about yachts and Italy, he owns a Cerri 86 at the moment AFAIK. Also owns the Cerri yard 90% SH with Carlo Cerri the founder.
Second one of the first thing they did which I like is that they confirmed Paszkowski as the designer. He is been with Baglietto since a lot of time may be since the late eighties.
Third from what I heard but I have no way to confirm is that they re-signed all the people who have worked with Baglietto in the past.
Last they launched the MV13 past Summer which shows a lot of tribute to the Baglietto performance and military heritage, which is to say the least something very deep.
Hope this answers your questions. Anyways being you in italy may be you can get a bigger feedback about this then us which are away.
Don't you wonder about every builders with owner changes? Better? Worse? Who knows till a while. I mean we have Italian (Riva) and I love them but then I don't know if being Chinese owned will change nothing, make them better, or make them worse.
I think making broad assumptions and lumping builders by country is sort of like really messed up though. It's really the specific builder. Some are living on reputation too like any field. In some cases reputation is hurting those that have improved.
I mean biggest example I'd give in US to wonder about is Hatteras. Old ones loved loved loved by everyone. Then they got stagnant with big boy Brunswick wanting to dump. Now who knows about venture dudes that own it now? Honestly how many times can the workforce be yo-yo'ed back and forth and still come back for more?
Your observations of how things improve or deteriorate when Oweners change is one which is hard to define with an all encompassing answer.
Venture Capitalists by nature want to make money and have very little comcern about personnel or any feeling for the product other than what shape the bottom line is in.
The two you mention we're started and run by very passionate folks who had first and foremost an unwavering belief in their product and workforce,
There are not many of these type of folks in the same roles these days even though they do exist in very small operations here and there.
Many have come unstuck by signing un realistic contracts that left no profit or cost them to finish, a business cannot survive too many of these if it is anything other than a hobby funded by some more successful enterprise.
Yes, the builder you liked last year may not be the same this year. May not even under the same ownership and leadership if finances have changed. My hubby went through acquisitions, being sold, an LBO, then being acquired by a large investor group, but probably the best there is. Sometimes it was close to being purchased by others though who he knew would destroy what the company stood for. Not boats but still manufacturing.
Will mom and pop stores survive? Right about the small boatyard? I mean it's such a moving target sometimes. We had a lot of friends with major warranty work to be done and that work stopped right in the middle when Genmar went belly up. Promises out the window. OF course they all tell you they're in good shape and no changes will occur. Right. Want to buy some swampland? Some of the changes go great but some go haywire upside down fast.
This whole thing started on Italian builders. We have two Italian boats. I mean Riva started like 150+ years ago but you know what, not one of the guys who worked there then still does. Went Riva family to Rolls Royce people (Vickers) to Ferretti, which then went through changes and the family owned less and lenders owned it basically. Went through expansion and downsizing then ended up now owned by a Chinese bulldozer manufacturer. So, all the people may seem sincere when they tell you about the future, but the truth is they don't have a .....'in idea. Not like the owners are going to tell them and not like the owners know. No one knows. You just make your best guess. Now to us the future didn't matter cause we were just buying sexy little boats that were already built and we could get surveyed up front even though they were new.
So we like our little Italian boats but we have not the foggiest idea what will happen with the Italian builder.
Anyways IMO Ferretti Group is in a better shape now then it was a decade ago. Those Hedge Funders or whatever they are called did more harm then any good, and Norberto and his partners still has a share in this, albeit a small one.
Lets not be all too dreamers, is all about money, the problem is how greedy they get. IMO Ferretti Group got very greedy in the past decade. At the moment it is doing a lot of good things, I think whats happening at Bertram in the past three years is a good sign, and with Pershing it did a very solid job since its acquisition in 1998. Also the re-launching of Riva was also good, considering this was a hole in Vickers assets.
I am not saying Ferretti is perfect but considering all they did a nice job with the brands they have and had. Norberto Ferretti had always a close to perfect vision.
Style wise there good is near to perfection, quality seems to differ from brand to brand. I know quite a few owners who have owned a dozen different brands of boats and they would not move easily away from a Ferretti nowadays.
As for the workers at Riva, that nearly deserves a post of its own, and the damage was started with Vickers who at some point was at logger heads with Union contracts. We are speaking early nineties here. So some Riva workers from Sarnico moved to other yards in the region. Some say cantieri di Sarnico signed most of them at the time.
Methinks you're probably right. Long ago my hubby and I both became very much against debt. I know it's almost un-American not to borrow, borrow and borrow. And this didn't happen after we had money but long before. When we met we were that way. And in business, we sort of like sometimes get carried away in our retirement still buying small businesses, but we have great people doing all the work so takes little of our time and fun. Yeah, it's out non boating hobby. I knew he couldn't completely sit back and watch the world without wanting in. I personally like buying women's apparel and bikini and lingerie and jewelry stores. What a shock! Hehe. But the reason most of them are good deals is they were struggling before with the debt burden. Without it they make money quickly.
So you get bought by someone with financial strength, deep pockets, there's hope. As long as they don't compromise the quality. But companies struggling and deep in debt are the ones really likely to screw the pooch and lose their quality.
****, I'm starting to sound like a businesswoman. What have I become? ****, hubby has corrupted me. I better go buy something to prove I'm a consumer instead.
Solid considerations in the last few posts IMO.
As for Baglietto I thought I'd contribute some numbers.
The new owner, Gavio, heads a conglomerate worth €2.7bn revenues in 2011, employing 5200 people. Invested €20m upgrading Baglietto. The yard can build up to 60m/700t at their facilities.
They are building 2 46m Steel/Al displacement for delivery 2014, one 53m, two planning 46 and 43 meters for 2015.
Baglietto ranks 17th in total build length with 349 meters (Azimut-Benetti being first with 2,926 meters and Sanlorenzo a perhaps surprising second with 1,345 meters, Ferretti Group is third with 1,059 meters)
Yes, anytime ownership changes there are changes that will be made. Many of the founders of most boat building companies were passionate about the boats. Some were great boat builders but horrible businessmen (which effected the line due to unhappy customers). Sometimes the origional builder is so darn hard headed that they won't change anything in their design even if there is a better way, yet the next person looks at it more logically. Some were half and half. Many times the next person comes along and is resented by the employees at least until they prove themselves. However, when a large company buys a boat builder it generally does result in cost cutting, but not necessarily. Sometimes the big company also brings big engineers and spends the money on good equipment for the factory. It's a tough call.
I will say that each country has a lot of similarities in their build quality and products even through the different manufacturers. For example, I think I'd rather have the electrical and electrical components from a Meridian over the electrical work and components on most Italian yachts (under 100') anyways. OTO, most Italian motoryachts 80'< will handle a sea better than their American MY counterparts.
BTW, is your Riva the brownish color?