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Italian Shipyard quality...?

Discussion in 'Popular Yacht Topics' started by mwagner1, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I had an owner who'se good friend had a 96'ish on order and had hull #2 being built. When they launched hull number 1, it listed so badly, they needed 21 tons of ballast on the other side to level the boat out, that ought to tell you everything.

    After seeing hull #1 launch he cancelled his or sold the hull, and ordered a larger Moonen which he is extremely happy with last I heard.
  2. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I sold a couple San Lorenzo 72, 70s and 82 and 62s. Most clients are pretty happy with them, and most of them come from Ferrettis, Princess, Sunseeker, Azimut, Fairlines etc

    I do consider San Lorenzo to be one of the best semi production builders around. I had only a few survey problems with them mostly coming from a 1995 70s, which had in actual fact never had its warranty work properly done.
    I think when it comes to entry level super yachts 80 feet to 100 and fiberglass with modern lines the small Italian yards (Falcon, Sanlorenzo, Canados, Cantieri di Pisa and the Viareggio-Genoa {Liguria to Lazio} circle) have an edge.
    Ferretti build a good boat, that does not mean it does not have any problems and flaws, but I think they are much better to the usual production builder see above list. I think in very rare cases do I go on an 18 meter (590) Motor Yacht and I can circle around the engines. Surely not on the above list

    IMO speaking with some Med captains they would definitly tell you that a steel custom Benetti holds it own well with a Heesen or Feadship. Actually the Benetti is usually more sea worthy. Still in medium sized super yachts I would go with Codecasa in Italy. A brilliant yard.

    Most Italian yards if you ask them about US will not look happy at you, and they might only like Tiara, and Cabo.
    If you ask them about Hatteras they will tell you it is a water sponge, Sea Ray is a nightmare, and so on so forth.

    We also have to remember that Italy has also a lot of small builders in the medium size range.
    I like Uniesse a lot fabolous boat with great sea keeping. I think its US after sales service left to be desired in the US. Was tere a post here about this.
    Sarnico another great boat.
    And VZ from Venice.

    The Dutch have an edge in smaller stainless steel builds, under 100 feet, but above that it starts to get less. Another thing is that most of these yachts are build under class if you want, so that can make a difference.
    I had the occasion to see a 1 year old San Lorenzo 88 not build under class which was ok, but then another Cantieri di Pisa 85 Akhir under class and that made a big difference.
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Oooh, the stories I could tell about purely design related issues with those boats that cost the owners un sacco di soldi!
  4. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I can tell unlimited stories on any yacht brand....

    But I remember a few years back a Lurrsen here new a very big one owned by a Russian which on its maiden voyage came in Malta Dry Docks for a repair to its poles three of them which had structural issues.
    Another medium sized (50 meters) Dutch steel build at the time its biggest had also problems with parts of its structure departing from the outer shell.

    So if any-1 wants stories (real ones) I can find you how much I want. And if you are here we can also go to speak with some of the local dry dock workers.
    BTW anything on a super yacht costs a lot of money.

    What I can say is this that last week I was away crusiing in Sicily in my 10 meter Sport Cruiser.
    I was swimming in Taormina (a super yacht haven there with 10+ 80 feet plus coming every day for a swim) and in came hull one of a Pershing 82 launched on the 13th, which did 500nm+ from Mondolfo in its first day in the water trouble free. The captain was actually super impressed with it. For your info the Pershing arrived at 1300 CET time, with some five feet waves in the crazy Ionian sea.
  5. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Please do, if the boats are launched recently. This thread is about building at Italian Shipyards in 2012.
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Are you talking about a 3 masted Sailboat here?
  7. mwagner1

    mwagner1 Senior Member

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    As the OP, I will apologize for the spelling of the name....just to let you know, the cliche filled person (your words, not mine) who advised me on the overall quality of Italian yards is not some dweeb who walked in off the dock....this person is a former yacht captain, a person with naval engineering degrees, has built and managed and overseen numerous builds...and yes, HE knows what HE is taking about as he has seen numerous boats and stays in contact with many owners, designers, architects....once again, I apologize for the spelling but hey, we all make mistakes and I will never trash anyone here for either spelling gaffs or poor English

    Jeez, I am even sorry I started this thread because some people obviously have thin skin and are easily offended...:rolleyes:

    Carl, you would not offend me in the slightest if you either locked or deleted the entire thread..

    Ciao baby,
  8. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    Mondo had some issues with the first hulls of its semi displacemnt 40 meter fast series.
    AFAIK the 60 meter full displacement delivered to Benetton has been one of the most appreciated yacht by the technical people around.

    ISA Yachts as well as CRN is also another yacht who seem to have very good quality numbers by the technical people.

    IMO Benetti has two lines; its semi production fiberglass and steel yacht. All of its steel yachts are still in the water. I meet with the 65 meter Lion Heart in Taormina and what can one say. Amazing looks but don't know much on the technical side.

    Both CRN and Benetti have well filled order books, with price who are the same to a Heesen and a Feadship.
  9. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

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    How about the Mondo M50 steel displacement hull?
  10. RVN-BR

    RVN-BR Senior Member

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    iirc streamline is a semi, no? at least it is a sleek looking boat...

    havent heard anything of streamline. what i do know is that most mondos are completely custom, and as such many of them are completely different from the next, so comparison is useless... i have heard from more than one captain on mondo vessels positively about them. k1w1's source may have been on a poorly designed vessel or poorly built vessel, but it is really difficult to point fingers at the shipyard... Mondo has delivered over 60 vessels iirc, and they have been delivering vessels constantly (at least one or two over the past year iirc), and they can be seen frequently on magazines and such, so i wouldnt say "they dont communicate"... they arent the most active, but they are fairly well-known and well-regarded from my research. hope this helps

    even dutch, german, yards outsource... (take moonen for example)... everyone does it now a days... it doesnt necessarily mean a worse product...it can even mean a better product! (take the best-in-class supplier in each area and bring them together....better than having average or even above-average in-house employees)....
  11. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

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    Thanks for the great feedback! Yes I love the way she looks especially moving through the water Streamline - YouTube so I will be keeping Streamline on my short list!!!

    My only concern with her is that her dark color might absorb more heat that the typical white so it could be a little uncomfortable for crew maintenance or guests comfort?

    Not that it really matters but the sites I have checked indicate:

    Hull Configuration: Displacement
    Hull Material: Steel
    Superstructure: Aluminium
  12. RVN-BR

    RVN-BR Senior Member

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    She is indeed very beautiful... and is now for sale! :) (are you in the market for that size/budget?)

    You are correct for the hull config, i was under the impression she was a faster boat, but just saw her top at 16kn, which may be right for displacement of 50m... (i didnt calc lwl etc but sounds right)...

    anyways, about the color, it is more maintenance for crew and owner in terms of costs, paintjobs, etc, but shouldnt be any less comfortable due to the heat no... i have experience aboard dark yachts and they are barely any different from white ones, esp if the A/C system is properly designed and the hull material can also influence it a bit, but shouldnt be an issue on a yacht like streamline at all...
  13. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    You will find that a dark coloured Hull will get a lot hotter in the sun than a white one. This can lead to distortion and in extreme cases cracks in filler when dealing with a steel or alu hull.

    Not only does the A/C need to be up to the job but also the Insulation and Structure of the vessel need to be designed and built with a dark colour in mind for the best result.
  14. RVN-BR

    RVN-BR Senior Member

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    So there you go disco! my "owners/guest" perspective, and the technical answer from our friend k1w1 ;)

    I suppose streamline would have been built with decent insulation since if i'm not mistaken the dark grey was its design color.... and thankfully the other boats I was on were also good on that department!

    About the distortion and cracks, i'm not sure if that is what I saw on a boat i inspected recently, but the dark hull had become very dull in many spots... it was no secret, however, that they didnt maintain it up to standard and that an entire new paintjob was overdue...

    (On the other hand if you do keep up on the maintenance and re-paint every so often - the exact time period can vary greatly - it is possible to have an always beautiful yacht!)
  15. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

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    Alais, when I retired I had to promise my partner, "No more boats" :(

    My last love was the Baja 277 you see pictured as my avatar which was perfect for puttering around Fort Lauderdale and environs.

    The great part about my retirement is that I have lots of time to study about my Lottery Boat and learn and plan for circumnavigation.

    Streamline is at the top of my Big Lottery list(+5M) along with Sea Bowld, Obsession, Perfect Persuasion(Oceanfast), Triumphant Lady, Antina(Sterling), Smile(Benetti), Silver Dream(Warren Yachts), Tatiana, M(Bilgin), Jade 95(Jade Yachts), Ellix Too(ISA Ancona), and Latitude(DYB).

    My Small Lottery list(-5M) includes Showtime, S&U(Broward Marine), Gazelle(Oceanfast), Andiamo(Azimut), and Il Cigno(Nicolini Shipyard).

    I am looking for something that is turn key, capable of a several year circumnavigation with a draft that allows for more rather than fewer harbors and anchorages(<9ft.) that is <20M, under 200ft., and hopefully with an elevator. No matter now much I win I see no reason to spend more than 20M or go over 180ft to do what I want.

    After many hours of surfing I have found that YF is hands down the best source of information for yachts in my target zone so thanks to all the monitors and members for their invaluable contributions to my search of a lifetime!!!
  16. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Is it under 20m (65 ft)or under 200ft you are looking at?

    The sure way to get bang for your buck is to reduce the amount of pretty pretty things and go for robust reliability.

    You will also be lucky to find a motor boat around 65 ft with either an elevator or a 9ft draft.
  17. Milow232

    Milow232 Guest

    No I am pretty shure he was talking about 20 million dollars and <200 feet.
  18. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Sorry, I should have put a $ in front of 20M to read less than $20,000,000.00 and the length should be less than 200ft.
  19. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    One yacht I like is the triple jet ISA 120. Hull 11, delivery next year is on sale as are two or three used ones.
    Three of them charter for €90-110k pw
    The bigger ISA 140, hull 1, is also on sale with the same broker.

    The GRP hulls for both are made by Intermarine (which among other things has built GRP hulled minehunters for a number of navies ;) )

    Anyone has any info on these? Maybe somebody can charter one and report back? :D

    Attached Files:

  20. RVN-BR

    RVN-BR Senior Member

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    There is an isa 120 (aka stair master of the seas LOL) with triple jets iirc, for sale at a "bargain".... if thats what strikes your fancy, i mean... look her up, its firouzeh... i think thats a deal to be made... havent seen her but i know what she sold for new, and its a deal...

    There is also another isa, larger, also triple jet, called tvtb, also for a fraction of build price.... if this is your style, these two are worth a visit... i may also consider the pershing 115 that is around, (cant remember if its dont touch or another one), but its also for less than build price...

    Many of these "sports" yachts are for sale now at good prices, and the world is taking a bit of a shift and isnt looking as fondly to the gas guzzlers of the sea.... The market is definitely a buyers market... if you are looking for something in that profile i'd take a look at the two isa's... a very reputable yard, although as i always say, each boat is different....