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Italian Shipyard quality...?

Discussion in 'Popular Yacht Topics' started by mwagner1, Aug 16, 2012.

  1. mwagner1

    mwagner1 Senior Member

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    Hey all....a number of years ago I was told by a few folks I trust that Italy has great clothing, great cars, great food and great wine....but if one wanted a truly world class yacht, you needed to stay away from the Italian yards and stick with those in Germany or those in Holland.

    Now, fast forward to late 2012...we have Fiancanteri launching a new 134m baby and Privilege building a new 120m beauty...Fiancanteri has some massive designs in the works as well...

    Is current Italian shipbuilding now on par with say, Nobiskrug, Lurssen, Oceanco etc???

    Cheers,
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Just because they are the same size as those built in say Holland and Germany, and just because they are a nice design, does not mean that they are as well made or well engineered.....I am not really involved with yachts in the sizes you're talking about, but I feel that they are not up to par with the others mentioned in the marine electrical department and a few other area's.......
  3. mwagner1

    mwagner1 Senior Member

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    Point taken and agreed upon..I guess that only time will tell if the new 134m that Fiancanteri launched will hold up well where it really counts in regards to engineering, electrical, etc...

    Cheers,
  4. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Of the thee you list the Italians are probably closest to Nobiskrug. They are in a lower league compared to the other two.

    From what I understand Fincantierei are basically building scaled down cruise ships albeit with a few refinements.

    Priviliege on the other hand are a great unknown, the website looks slick enough and I hope whoever has stumped up the coin to get the hull where it is was not just sucked in by that and a brokers silver. tongue.
  5. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    ... and yet Italy is the number one producer of motor yachts (until recently concentrating on "smaller" units below 50-60m).

    So are we to believe that hundreds of people smart enough to make the money to buy a yacht are wrong and your friends are right?

    As for engineering capabilities I wouldn't put FINCANTIERI and the northern european megayachts manufacturers on the same page (let alone sentence); Fincantieri aside from being a major player in cruise ships, designs and builds aircraft carriers and submarines...

    Your friends only talk in cliches. You know what they say about people who only talk in cliches...
  6. Milow232

    Milow232 Senior Member

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    Haha who are you that you can make such a statement of K1W1 ?! He is in that business since more than 20 years and one of most knowledgeable people here...But I guess he has not to justify oneself to you who has not any expirience as references. I think they talked about superyachts over 70m, and not yachts from 20-40m.

    I for my part maintain a low profile, maybe you should do it as well if you have not the knowledge. Perhaps you are a little biased as an Italian that is another reason why I did not want to reply to this as I am a German and my post would probably not be rational enough but people like you who make wrong statements about people they even do not know make me really angry.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yeah Yeah Yeah, The Italians make tons of Azimuts, Feretti's, Benetti's, etc etc...... Just because they make a ton of them does not mean that they are a well built boat. Volkswagon made a ton of beetles in the 60's and 70's, but they made a ton of them because they were cheap, as a car they are sorely lacking when you look at others that have air conditioning and power steering.

    I can say this, I manage and maintain 10 yachts......mostly around 55' or so. Searay's, Sunseeker, Silverton, Hatteras, Neptunus, an Azimut etc etc...... The only ******* boat that drives me up the wall out of all of them is that 1 Azimut. always always always, every simple repair is a mission whether it's finding the part, trying to access it, or the way they did it at the factory that just leaves you shaking your head.

    The problem on the production yachts from Italy is they sub-contract the electrical and interior. So each yacht is wired totally differently, the joinery is totally different and nothing makes sense, and nothing is the same. One Azimut I managed, they built the joinery OVER the drop down ceiling access panels, so you couldn't access any of the wiring in the ceiling........
  8. Milow232

    Milow232 Senior Member

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    Oh I have missread your post, I am sorry!
  9. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

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    You mean that's not how you're supposed to do it??? :D
  10. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    Azimut! You know what I do in the first instance, I usually go through the English language literature even from Italian manufacturers (I'm Italian) and last I looked Azimut's English was so irritatingly bad that that's a deal breaker by itself. How the **** can I have faith in your product if you are not capable of producing a decent English language doc? It just spells lazy, amauterish, disconnected... It's indefensible and an embarassment to the entire industry IMO.
    I'll take your word as for the specifics; but then they are also the cheapest.

    What about the larger boats from Benetti, CRN, ISA, CBI or the "new" ones like Tankoa (former Baglietto personnell leaving before the collapse), Rossi Navi (they've been a supplier for decades before going it alone) and others.
    (Privilege and Viareggio Superyachts I know nothing about)

    I believe the reason why the megayacht sector has 'til now been the exclusive domain of northern european yards is ultimately economic only; firstly the sector wasn't as big years ago and secondly, in the fragmented Italian industry nobody had the resources required to take on the Germans and Dutch.

    Fincantieri moved in when the decreasing cruise and military markets provided the motivation, and the growth of the megayachts sector, the opportunity. The people who ordered yachts from them I'm sure did their research and trust their capabilities.
    (And they didn't base their decision on hearsay from German sources and a couple of forum posts LOL)
  11. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    I was working with a 2010 Benetti Vision recently. Not to say there was not some birth defects but I was rather impressed at the quality of the build compared to what I have seen in the past. The owners paid for an outside survey company to watch the build and that really showed. Like Capt J was talking about the Azimut boats, I believe most of those are built spec so who knows what may have taken place with no supervision. I don't think they mean to do bad, I think they just don't know some things like a good surveyor does know.

    I was on a build project in Italy in 03. I noticed the yard had some very smart skilled people along with some not so smart people. The not so smart where causing a lot of issues on the project. I asked the wiser project manager why the yard did not replace those lesser intelligent people causing problems. He explained to me that in Italy it is very hard to fire people with out having to pay a lot of money for unemployment compensation and it was cheaper to repair what they mess up. Unfortunatly they don't always catch those people's messes to clean up.
  12. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    A buyer may be business smart, but when it comes to objects that 'move' you, emotion plays a big role. We're ALL guilty of this and let's face it, Italian design is enticing; by land or by sea. We saw a lot of new money enter the marine market in the last decade and in many cases, it was disposable income. These new boat buyers weren't as seasoned as the folks on YF. They wanted something sexy and they wanted a brand name. To this effect, some builders did a remarkable job creating prestige and exclusivity. But like any product, deficiencies develop over time. During the run-up years, some builders were struggling to keep up with demand, leaving little time to tweak their products.

    Several of the Italian big boat brands are very reputable, including Benetti and ISA. CRN is a good value for the money and this is why they've had so much activity in recent years. That said, I cannot and will not recommend a couple of these brands because communication is non-existent and they are on a different time schedule from the rest of the world... it will get done when it gets done!

    I know nothing of the other Italian brands because once again, communication is non-existent. Believe me, I've tried! I finally gave up because a few of these yards turn over personnel so often, it's not worth programming into my contact database. And even then, you have to sit down and have a coffee, talking about nothing related to yachts for them to even acknowledge you. This is where the Italian yards are failing, miserably. Their marketing people are more interested in making a frivolous appearance then actually trying to help their employers succeed in the marketplace.

    If you want an absolutely expert opinion on big boat builders in Europe, trust me when I tell you... there are only a handful of people that are as knowledgeable as K1W1 and chances are, you'd NEVER have a chance to communicate with them. We're very lucky that he's addicted to YF!
  13. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    You have been well informed. In Italy the labour laws make it expensive to fire people. That's another reason why some prefer to subcontract work externally.
    In recent years some progress has been made with temporary contracts and law changes.

    Another issue is the diminishing domestic market due to the economy and heavy, specific ownership taxation.

    Yet another problem is a credit system that isn't as forthcoming and is presently non existant.

    All things considered it's impressive what they accomplish under the circumstances.
  14. discokachina

    discokachina Senior Member

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    +1 Carl's comment about Kiwi's vast knowledge!

    Where does Mondo Marine fall in the pecking order of Italian yards?

    I ask because one of their yachts, Streamline, STREAMLINE - Mondo Marine is on my Top 10 List.
  15. offshore1

    offshore1 New Member

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    I can only say that my friend has a 64 foot Lazarra in Michigan and the local yards hate working on it.
    Something about European wiring and such.
    Maybe their spoiled by US production ?
  16. AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    Since when are Lazzara built in Europe..?
  17. ttkrule

    ttkrule Member

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    And I on the other hand still think that much of the undiscerning new money has unduly flocked towards the German yards lured by the stereotype about their presumed engineering superiority.

    I've often wondered over the past two, three years why only a small fraction of the Italian manufacturers are listed on this forum but I understand how they bring it on themselves; they still don't understand the Internet.
    The personal communications "style" sounds about right; they'd do that.

    On a positive note you did get that post from the CBI mktg guy on the Aifos thread. So who knows. Maybe in another ten years...
  18. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    Oh come on Lars, Lazzara's are Italian, so they are built in Italy! I thought you knew that... ;)
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I guess those workers in Michigan haven't ever stepped foot on one of those aeroplanes and they think Florida is on the other side of the globe.

    Sounds like your buddy needs to find a yard that is capable of properly working on his Lazzara instead of 40 year old Chris Crafts.
  20. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

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    Now that is funny. LOL

    In more than one way. While I've never run a 64, I have run 76s and 80s and always found them easy to maintain. As others have said, time for your friend to find a new yard that is not both geographically and mechanically challenged.